May 17 2009
Six Superhero Plots That Need to Die
1. Shrinking. First, this is a horribly cliche type of story. Second, it is pretty much impossible to do anything fresh with it. The characters get shrunk, deal with some tiny obstacles (usually including a cat or some other suddenly dangerous animal), and then get their size back. What else could you do with it?
How can I do it right? Have the character stays shrunken for longer than just an issue. It’ll push you to develop the formula in a fresh direction, and hopefully one more fertile than “and then they discover a microscopic civilization!”
2. Body-swapping. One character switches bodies with another, usually involuntarily. The drama usually comes from the characters having to survive despite having different powers or different roles than they’re used to.
How can I do it right? This isn’t necessarily bad, but it has been done extensively. It tends to work best if the characters have to keep their identities secret. If Jim and Luke can just tell everyone that their bodies have been swapped, it’s not really an interesting obstacle. But if Jim and Luke can’t talk about magic or the supernatural hijinks they’re involved in, then body-swapping makes it that much harder for them to maintain the masquerade. Give them difficult situations they can’t duck. For example, “Luke” suddenly has a piano concert and “Jim” is now the starting defensive tackle. The only way for them to protect the secret is to learn (or feign competence in) something totally new. Good luck!
3. Age change. The villain or an accident causes a character to get drastically younger or older (usually younger). This is even worse than shrinking because a hero turned into a baby is no longer a character so much as a prop. Also, these episodes/issues tend to be overwhelmingly cute. Ick.
How can I do it right? I’d recommend trying it like Big or Thirteen Going on Thirty or Seventeen Again. The story follows the character as he enters another stage of life. How does he handle his new predicament? That’s an interesting situation. In contrast, babies can’t do anything but cry.
4. World War II time travel. Time travel is not a problem in series that have been built around it, but “let’s do an issue set in World War II!” is shoot-me-in-the-face bad. The villains are one-dimensional, there’s no chance the writers will let the heroes lose and it’s cliche.
How can I do it right? Realistically, you can’t and I wouldn’t recommend it. However, if you’re dead-set on trying anyway, maybe try something more creative than sending the villain back in time to help the Nazis. One alternative would be having the heroes try to stop a well-intentioned “antagonist”–say, somebody who lost his family in the Nazi death camps–from going back in time to kill Hitler because killing Hitler might lead to Germany winning the war with a competent leader. This setup is stronger because the villain is more morally complex and because sneaking in to guard a hostile target is inherently more dramatic and challenging than an all-out assault. Also, the outcome is less guaranteed/predictable, particularly if the story is set towards the end of the war. Perhaps the story ends with the heroes and assassin agreeing to stage Hitler’s murder as a suicide, but only when the Allies’ victory is guaranteed.
5. Underwater adventures, particularly with Atlantis. It’s very hard to do an interesting aquatic tangent. Have you ever heard anyone wish that Aquaman or Namor would show up? Me neither.
How can I do it right? I think your best bet is to set most of the story in a sealab or a sealed city under the waters. The less time the characters spend in submarines or swimming, the better. Also, this kind of story might work better as a series focus than as a tangent. It’s not that aquatic stories necessarily suck (please see Finding Nemo or The Little Mermaid), just that an aquatic setting is usually a waste of time for land-bound heroes. Additionally, few land-bound heroes have powers well-suited to interesting underwater fight scenes, so it might help to have the climactic battle in a sealed environment like a domed city or in a coastal city above the water.
6. Saving helpless women. (Hat-tip to commenter Heather).
How can I do it right? At the very least, if she’s going to get herself kidnapped or otherwise endangered, maybe it’s because of something she did besides dating the hero? For example, in Iron Man, Pepper Potts endangered herself by sneaking into the villain’s office to steal his computer files. Sometimes Lois Lane is a competent investigative journalist. Give your characters a chance to be something besides just The Screaming Girlfriend. Maybe even you have some female characters that aren’t love interests! (A revolutionary concept, I know).
UPDATE: If you’re interested in plots that don’t need to die, I think this list of stock plots might help.
Wow, you’ve missed so many off this list.
I’d like to submit more:
6. A variation on swapping bodies: swapping powers. Slight distinction. Same problems.
7. Negative universe. Firstly, there’s inherent fridge logic. (wait, if this universe is the polar opposite of mine, why isn’t everything made of antimatter and therefore liable to explode if I touch it) Secondly, IT MAKES NO SENSE. Usually it’s a way to introduce an ‘evil counterpart’ to your hero. Really, it’s just incredibly illogical.
8. By extension, parallel universes. Like the kind where the bad guy won. Similar problems to negative universes, but with MORE. Firstly, fridge logic. If there’s a parallel universe, no one can die since there will always be a universe where they didn’t die. Also there’s the inherent issues with how the system works.
I’m sure there’s more but I’ve forgotten them.
On an unrelated note: B. Mac, I think TVtropes is muscling in on your territory.
I think parallel universes can be handled competently, though admittedly not too often. I think Doctor Who has had some good parallel universe stories. “Father’s Day” (okay, that’s pseudo-parallel; it counts in my mind), “Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel” and “Turn Left” spring to mind in the new series.
I agree that it needs a capable writer, though. (Or alternatively, good actors. Chris Eccleston and David Tennant are very good.)
I’m not too worried or annoyed about the competition from TV Tropes. I really appreciate what they do for storytellers, which is why I link to them so often.
I’m more annoyed when people package a summary of my content as their own unique work, particularly if they sell ads. At least sometimes they link to me. That helps contribute to my success.
I had a list of 9 candidates, but I was already at around 400 words before I got to #4. Some of the other ones I left off…
–The obligatory trip to Japan, Western Europe or Egypt. Usually banal filler. I liked Kim Possible’s Japan episode, though.
–Animal transformation… creepy. It worked for Kafka’s Metamorphosis and Homer’s Odyssey, but in the modern era it usually feels like that kind of fan-service. Tigra’s not fooling anyone.
–Clones. Fortunately, Marvel has (mostly) grown out of these.
–Talking apes. Astonishingly, DC dug out talking apes for an animal transformation episode in Justice League. Eww.
Fortunately, most of these don’t come up very often.
Those are among the many I forgot. Seriously, you’ve stumbled onto something huge here.
Oh, and the TVTropes thing was purely tongue-in-cheek. Forgot the
smiley.
At least in Justice League they punished Grodd for turning everyone into apes in the form of Luthor pulling a Starscream on him, specifically for that reason. I think the quote went:
Lex: Alright I can’t take much more of this. Turning everyone into apes? That’s your plan? I was going to wait until later but you’ve forced my hand. *pulls out a gun*
You know what? I never knew what the expression “tongue-in-cheek” meant. Could you elaborate, Tom.
Oh, and how’s production on Psykid (if that’s the name of the show) going? You haven’t posted much in your forum lately.
I doubt I was the only viewer to applaud when Grodd got thrown out of the airlock. Now, if only Lex Luthor hadn’t had to use a magical artifact to do it.
Also, “tongue-in-cheek” usually means something that isn’t meant to be taken seriously, but is more subtle than a parody. For example, Agent Orange is a parody of the Matrix, but Marty Stull is a tongue-in-cheek take on Marty Stu/Mary Sue characters.
Psykid’s in a position that can only be described as quantum. It exists and doesn’t exist at the same time.
It exists for the following reasons:
1. I have a script written and I’m (theoretically) working on another.
2. I actually have a meeting with a production company in London soon. Not a pitch, but they might be interested.
It doesn’t exist for these reasons:
1. I’m currently in the middle of an exam season, and a big one at that. Really I shouldn’t even be here. That’s the reason for the ‘theoretically’, it’s on hold until the mid-exam-season-break.
2. The meeting isn’t until after exams, so I can’t progress until then.
But I digress… Seriously, I think this issue merits more than five plots. There’s loads you can mention.
–Convenient amnesia.
–The Christmas/holidays episode. Not even Star Wars could make it work.
Feel free to offer your own, but mainly I’m interested in ones that are so consistently hopeless that they will scare away readers. For example, WWII time-travel always sucks because the villains are weak and there’s no way you can let the heroes lose and because the premise reveals 95% of what will happen. Maybe you could make it work with a bizarre twist like “we’ve got to save Hitler from a well-meaning assassin or the Nazis will win the war,” but even then I’m not hopeful.
Christmas episodes work as breather episodes. As long as no one takes them seriously they can be accepted… no, not accepted… forgiven.
Don’t forget the classic:
- Hero gets sick/injured and (usually) has to use less competent teammates to fight for them.
This isn’t usually a problem for superhero stories, but a lot of cartoon shows do a throwaway superhero-themed episode. For example, the new TMNT did “The Unconvincing Turtle Titan” and Kim Possible did one with Adam West. I think that just exchanging one kind of action with another (say, superpowered brawling instead of martial arts) is usually banal. But it was freakishly funny on Futurama. (Two lines from the New Justice Team’s theme song: “Citizens, never fear. Crazy do-good freaks are here!”)
Tom, if you have one episode scripted to presentation-quality, I suspect you might want to think about doing a page or two to describe the progression of the first season. Even something as simple as a sentence or two for each episode will help establish that you have some direction in mind.
Good luck with your pitch. Or non-pitch or whatever it is.
I’d also recommend asking your contact there what he’d like you to have on-hand. You might want to ask about time constraints as well. Unless you’ve been told otherwise, I suspect it won’t get close to 15 minutes.
“If there’s a parallel universe, no one can die since there will always be a universe where they didn’t die.”
Well, the alternate universe version is technically a different person. If Sonic dies, you can’t say, “we still have Scourge!”
I do like DC’s Earth-Three, I got a few chuckles out of some of the events:
- President John Wilkes Booth was assassinated by actor Abraham Lincoln.
- Christopher Columbus was an American that accidently discovered Europe.
- Instead of the Salem Witch Hunt, they hunted regular humans.
Also good luck with your exams, Tom. If you’re 16 you’re probably doing the same ones (roughly) as me, right?
another one is the hero makes one mistake bad guy gets away and he loses his confidince
i dont really like this plot but thats jusst me
Plus a hell of a lot of sidekicks and even a S.H.I.E.L.D like organisation in Torchwood (but with more bisexuals).
I use a parallel universe, but it’s not a “everyone has a clone who lives there” place. It’s where the human race as a whole evolved slightly differently, and it’s where Isaac and Tristram are from. There are no duplicates of anyone there.
I don’t plan on anyone visiting it, though. I would give it some consideration if I knew I could pull it off.
“I use a parallel universe, but it’s not a “everyone has a clone who lives there” place”.
Whoops, that should be:
“I use a parallel universe, but it’s not AN “everyone has a clone who lives there” place”.
I really suck at editing lately.
Actually, WWII storys about time travel can kick-ass.
Don’t believe me? Read this (it’s not mine, it’s excellent, it’s short).
http://www.abyssandapex.com/200710-wikihistory.html
I technically wrote a scene that used an aspect of a parallell universe. The original Specials (excluding Connor) fought copies of themselves created by Fantasma (temporary name, written for the sequel), who created them after reading Connor’s memories and bringing them to “life”. I actually rather liked it, what about you guys?
- Wings
Scribblar, I love Wikihistory, but it’s definitely not a superhero story.
Also, I think that time-travel generally works better when it is a central part of the story rather than just a throwaway tangent. For example, time-travel worked in Back to the Future but it was a sign that Seaquest had jumped the shark.
…
Daniel and Mr. Brit, although there is an argument for Dr. Who as a superhero story, I don’t think that Dr. Who is generally regarded as one. For example, Dr. Who’s Wikipedia entry uses no variations on the word “superhero.” In contrast, the entries for Superman and Batman and Spiderman each use it around 20 times.
I think Star Trek might be a better analogue than the superhero subgenre.
The reasons Dr. Who’s WWII episodes worked was because a) time travel is integral to the entire show’s plot and b) he was in blitz-era London, and not on the front lines fighting Nazis. Basically he was living the experience most British people had during the war as blitz victims, as opposed to the experience of most Americans during the war of fighting the Nazis.
Although having said all of this, the Justice League cartoon pulled off several of these ideas quite nicely, notably WWII time travel, parallel universe (Justice Lords), in fact, the Justice Lords episode was one of the best in the show, since it deconstructed to heck the idea of superheroes being shining beacons of justice. They also did the underwater thing several times with Aquaman, though admittedly it had the qualities of an Eigen plot. They did the people->animals thing, though lampshaded it, and they did the turning into kids thing, which was unbearably cute. And the mind-swap episode lead to some great comedy with these lines of dialogue:
Dr. Polaris: Aren’t you going to wash your hands?
Flash in Luthor’s body: No, because I’m evil!
and
Luthor in Flash’s body: Well at least I can find out his secret identity. *takes off mask* *pause* I have no idea who this is.
Christmas episodes have always annoyed me, except in the case of Doctor Who. A lot of the time Christmas isn’t a huge theme, it’s sort of in the background. I particularly loved The Christmas Invasion.
Jackie: “I’m gonna get killed by a Christmas tree!”
Err, yeah. It makes sense in context.
I love how they’ve lampshaded it now. Everyone deserts London on Christmas because they’re so Genre Savvy they know that Christmas=alien invasion. It actually comes dangerously close to breaking the Fourth Wall.
Yeah, they really need to stop setting every Christmas special at Christmas, or else it’ll seem like aliens are invading because it’s Christmas.
Actually, that’s not a bad idea. What day of the year is a vast chunk of the Earth’s population not doing anything? Christmas Day! It’s the perfect time to invade!
Haha. Not to mention a lot of them are in large groups and very drunk. Aliens could easily wipe out most of us because almost everyone is in a group.
I think that every now and then comic book series should have a special issue without dialogue. Those would be cool to write.
“I think that every now and then comic book series should have a special issue without dialogue. Those would be cool to write.”
I agree, Stefan, that sounds pretty fun. Especially if you have really expressive characters. I doubt I will ever do one any time soon, but it’d be a fun project.
I have read a comic like that at the convenion i was at a while back
it was rather gd.
Anways i coudnt find the open writen form, but i have found this synipsies thing you get on the back of books what do you guys think?
He always knew he was different.
First there were the dreams.
Then the deaths began.
When Matt Freeman gets into trouble with the police, he’s sent to be fostered in Yorkshire.
It’s not long before he senses there’s something wrong with his guardian: with the whole village.
Then Matt learns about the Old Ones and begins to understand just how different he is.
But no one will believe him; no one can help.
There is no proof.
There is no logic.
There is just the Gate.
Also heres the front cover http://www.powerof5.co.uk/ravensgate/story/
So basicly i just want thoughts on the cover titel and the synipisies.
The reson ask is alot of folk said a titel should tell us something about the book but this titel tells us very littel “what is a Ravens gate why should we care whats it about” my best B.mac inpression there lol anyways plese do tell ur thoughts
You can get to the writing forum here. Alternately, you can just type Open Writing Forum into our search bar at the top-left side of the page.
One thing you’re forgetting, David: Raven’s Gate is by Anthony Horowitz. If I were as popular (and as good) a writer as Anthony Horowitz, I probably wouldn’t bother with the perfect title.
Those books are awesome, by the way.
“Basically, I just want thoughts on the cover title and the synopsis.”
I don’t have much a strong opinion on the blurb (synopsis on the back). I presume it will be effective enough to catch a reader, then again, I’m not exactly sure of what a blurb entails. The cover goes well with the theme and feel of the other four covers. I’m guessing it’s a dark fantasy story.
“Then Matt learns about the Old Ones and begins to understand just how different he is.”
- I don’t really like this sentence, it feels akward. I recommend somehting like “When Matt learns of The Old Ones, he begins to understand just how different he is.”
Thats fair enough nevermind then.
I do type in open wrighting form
I hate all of them but especially 1, 2, and 5. I hate underwater adventures cause they have a tame feeling, specifically the Batman-Aquaman crossover on Batman:The Brave and the Bold.
Yeah. Popular authors can get away with crappy titles because readers will look at their books anyway. I think that’s how Michael Crichton got away with a slew of one-word titles like Disclosure and Next and Prey and Airframe. Definitely not as interesting as Jurassic Park or even the Andromeda Strain…
I’m not very impressed by the title for Raven’s Gate, but Raven is one of those generically dark-and-brooding words that tends to sell pretty well. In any given week, the fiction best-seller’s list will usually include at least one book with “dead” in the title. In manga, the equivalent codeword is “vampire.”
The backcover blurb does not seem very intriguing. For one, it starts out by introducing the character as a pronoun. That annoyed me. It all sounds pretty banal. I don’t feel like I know anything about the plot or the characters that would actually make me want to keep reading. Also, the phrase “It’s not long before he senses there’s something wrong with his guardian: with the whole village” is punctuated quite badly. Before this, I don’t think I had ever seen a published work misuse a colon before.
The blurb doesn’t introduce us at all to what the Raven’s Gate is. I feel like that’s a mistake. Nor does it drop any specific information about what goes on in the plot. For example, compare this to something like City of Thieves. Here’s an excerpt…
City of Thieves has a cooler title and the blurb strikes me as much more effective. It gives us some concrete details about the characters and what they’re trying to accomplish.
The word “death” crops up a bit in manga too. Death Note is reigning king of awesomeness in my books.
Hmm. Here’s another potential superhero plot that needs to die: the heroes have to save a Mary Sue utopia. (For example… Wakanda, Atlantis, the city of the apes, Switzerland, Krypton, anywhere else where everyone’s needs are effortlessly provided for, etc).
This is one aspect of Invincible that worked particularly well. The obnoxiously advanced planet that is the stand-in for Krypton is actually (issue ~10 spoiler) a brutal empire that’s a 5% sympathetic take on the Spartans. That’s far more interesting than “this is how we learned to achieve universal peace and understanding!” Spare me the lecture and pass the ammo.
Demolition Man also does a really good job playing with the idea of a Mary Sue utopia. Its advancement has come at a major price; the people are more or less helpless when a criminal attacks.
I feel the need to mention that the blurb does not do Raven’s Gate justice, as the book, and the series in general, is very good.
For me, the highlight of Raven’s Gate has to be the backwards Lord’s Prayer played through the radio. I thought that scene was very creepy. And I liked that police officer!
In short, what Tom says is true.
“Second, it is pretty much impossible to do anything fresh with it. The characters get shrunk, deal with some tiny obstacles, and then get their size back. What else could you do with it?”
B. Mac, what you have done is set me a challenge. I will think of a fresh, interesting idea for the shrinking episode!
Here’s a thought, Tom. What if it’s the villain that gets shrunk?
Wow, I think one of us is psychic, I was thinking the exact same thing. Kinda. I thought maybe an episode where the villain shrinks himself to sneak into somewhere to steal something, then the heroes have to shrink themselves to fight him since they can’t find him because he’s so small.
Whaddaythink?
Hmm. I’m not feeling it, Tom. If it were a cartoon show, I think the only notable difference would be the first few minutes (the lead-up to the characters getting shrunken). I don’t think that’s enough to revitalize a concept that’s so cliche.
In contrast, I think that a concept like a WWII episode to save Hitler from a well-meaning assassin is fundamentally different from the cliche WWII episode where the heroes have to stop a time-traveler from helping Hitler win. A mission to save Hitler will be stealthy, more interesting, and more morally complex. Also, the antagonist (the would-be assassin) would be more likable than the typical guy that time-travels to help Hitler… The ending is harder to predict… It’s obvious that Randal Savage can’t make Hitler win WWII in the end because the writer can’t let the Nazis win.
But it’s not so clear that the writer has to let the heroes save Hitler. Maybe assassinating Hitler wouldn’t affect the time-stream all that much? Maybe the heroes only manage to cover up Hitler’s assassination. Historical records say that he died in 1945, but maybe it was actually a year or two before that…*
Also, I think it would be a bit less dramatic if the heroes had their own way of unshrinking themselves. One of the advantages of the typical setup is that the shrunken heroes have no choice but to go after the villain because that’s the only way to unshrink themselves.
*I could maybe imagine a Taxman Must Die scene like this. Agent Black enters the room and finds Agent Orange standing over Hitler’s clawed-up body. BLACK: “What the hell happened? We were supposed to save him.” ORANGE: “Umm, suicide?”
*Fires a party missile straight into the awesome-atisphere*
(partygoers)
I’m back, babies! Got a (relatively) fresh and (somewhat) new keyboard. Now I can be regular again. Not only can I stay up with what’s going down, can move into steady production of the abridged Showtime. I’m ready to start reviewin’.
Hmm… sounds like fun! But there are a few inherent problems with the whole Earth shrinking that I really don’t want to get into.
I’ve just thought of another one. ‘Trapped in a video game’. This one’s a problem because it’s very gimmicky.
Off the top of my head I can list quite a few times I’ve seen this:
-Fairly Odd Parents
-Danny Phantom (incidentally both made by Butch Hartman)
-Yu-Gi-Oh
-I think Batman The Animated Series but I’m not sure
-Kim Possible
-Heck even Alex Rider has fallen victim to this, but in a slightly more sophisticated way
I think the MAIN problem with this is it’s overused. Yeah, they’re trapped in a video game, they’re probably wearing some sort of virtual reality helmet that (conveniently) can’t be removed until the game is won, they can talk to each other and walk and move normally despite the obvious issues that presents. But so what? It’s not particularly interesting.
the video game idea was also for a teen titans episode and video game
Ah, I knew I was forgetting some.
It’s also been used in Red Dwarf.
In two different games. But one of those was just creepy. A game so good that nobody wants to leave it because it creates the perfect life for you – so people have these headsets on and are completely oblivious to the real world and if you remove them, they die. And to get out of it, you have to want to leave. But nobody ever does because it’s a perfect world.
*shudders* Um, yeah, that particular idea freaked me out a lot.
I’d classify that as a Lotus Eater Machine rather than a video game.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine
On the subject of Lotus Eater Machines, although overused, they definitely do not fall under ‘plots that need to die’. Lotus Eaters (when done well) are a way to show a character’s innermost desires, and sometimes they can be quite intriguing. For example, in Supernatural, Dean’s Lotus Eater induced dream had him leading a quaint, idyllic life, which is a surprise considering the hard-hitting nature of his character.
So yeah…
I don’t think the “trapped in a virtual reality/video game” plot needs to die. It’s cliche, but it could be executed well. In contrast, I don’t think there’s any way to do a one-off with shrinking or WWII time-travel story that feels fresh.
The parameters of a shrinking story are so tight. As soon as the audience sees the title (something like “The Incredible Shrinking Noun”), they already know 90% of what’s going to happen. First act: the characters fight the villain, lose, get shrunken and escape. Second act: the characters overcome a variety of mundane obstacles that are suddenly serious, almost always including animals. Third act: The characters reach the villain, beat the villain and unshrink themselves. The only question is which animal the heroes face in Act II. Usually it’s a cat.
In contrast, the video game episode sounds more promising because a there are so many types of video games and some series might have a natural video game tie-in. I’m pretty sure the Simpsons did one with Itchy and Scratchy. My own work has a Pokemon parody, Hegemon, so maybe it wouldn’t feel really much out of place if I did an issue where the characters got stuck in a Hegemon game. Drawing on your universe’s past material will help keep the story feel continuous and coherent. Usually, when a story goes for a shrink-ray episode/issue, it’s out of place. Most stories can’t justify the shrink-ray, so it comes out of nowhere and disappears just as quickly.
You know, I always liked the idea of the characters fighting copies of themselves, and I managed to work a scene into book 2.
Since Maya’s power is to bring memories to life, by digging into the memory of one of the old Specials (Connor, most likely) she could create copies of Meg, Ian, Pierce, Darren, and Jazz as well as Connor himself (Personally, a Meg and Pierce versus Meg and Pierce just…sounds…EPIC. Ditto to Connor versus Connor). The memories react in the exact same ways the characters would (However, they are voiceless) which means the original heroes would have to get creative and improvise while fighting (How do you attack someone who technically created the attack, knows how to use it, and can easily block it?).
Well, I thought it was fun.
- Wings
That happened in the latest TMNT series. Robots copied the fight style of each turtle. The turtles eventually won by swapping weapons and mixing things up. It felt clever and believable at the time even though there are some minor logic issues. (If a robot has stolen the hero’s ability in his primary weapon, presumably he should be able to steal the secondary skills, too).
It’s probably a more popular trope in video games, though. After you’ve done the character-design for the hero and his moves, it takes a bit less visual design to work in a villain that has exactly the same moves. Fighting Polygons, attack!
…In Secret of Mana, the fight with the clones was easily the most difficult one in the game for me.
The whole ‘fighting clones of self’ has been used a billion times, as has the solution to the problem of switching to fight someone else’s clone. I’m sure there’s a trope for this… Happened in Teen Titans, IIRC.
I first saw it on the original American Power Rangers show, they cloned the various rangers and made new, I think ninja-y versions.
It’s not really a plot I mind, I think that it has a lot of potential to be entertaining and if used with the appropriate level of coyness, useful character development. I’ve noticed a lot of examples recently, even in relatively mature works,
T.N.T’s Leverage recently had the leads (a group of criminals that fight injustice by committing crimes.) go up against an evil group with a counterpart for each of them, it played with the expectations that go along with it by giving it several relatively new twists, such as one member having sex with themselves. 24′s most recent season turned Tony Almeda into an evil version of Jack Bauer, and gave him without the character’s knowledge, an evil (more misguided then evil) version of Chloe in Jeanane Garofalo’s character.
Okay, so maybe not a lot of examples, but still, more then zero.
Actually, going through the scene in my head, the copies ended up fighting the real heroes as a group – enabling them to take down the copy of the other person.
Hopefully that cleared something up?
- Wings
Evil Twins are a very similar concept, I think.
Yeah, they are pretty similar if the copies are evil. On a different note, what about Good Twins? If you get the polar opposite of a villain, a rather evil person, or me, you get a saintly copy devoted to niceness.
- Wings
I think Futurama made a good-twin version of Bender. I think it would work better in a comedy than a more serious story.
I read this article, and as much as some of the 5 storylines are used, I do have to add a few comments to each of them.
1: Shrinking: It would be tough bringing about a good shrinking story without it sounding like “Honey I shrunk the kids”. Only once has it really been done right. and honestly… it wasnt an action series. Magic School bus is meant to be educational.
Not to say having the power of Shrinking for the hero, to focus more on espionnage. but it is often coupled with a superpower that follows a certain theme. (Wasp with her stinger blasters, Giant Man with the ability to do the opposite, etc)
2:Mind Swap: yeah, these episodes tend to be more humourous… and we have seen the villain and hero swap already. But there is a storyline still open. If we have the super genius supervillain who is really irritated with the hero foiling their plans, then to really hurt the hero, if the villain decides to put his mind in the hero’s body, and even if this option is coupled over with number 3, you have the hero in a now helpless kid body, having to see the villain terrorise the world and ruin the hero’s life… and nothing stops the writer from making this change permanent…
3: Age Change: Yeah, most of these episodes are cute yes. But there is one anime series that has done it well, and focuses on the drama of the change: Detective Conan/Case Closed. The main character is shrunk for the duration of the series… and yes, it does have its comedic moments… but it also shows that the main character has to see his girlfriend cry herself to sleep every night. It’s rare to see this as a permenant change… and it doesnt have to be a baby.
4:WWII time travel: I agree… we know the result most of the time. Justice League approached this, but I liked what they did with Green Lantern. John Steward ran out of juice for his powers… so he has to do things in a guerrilla warfare situation. The only ways I can see this happen, is to make the hero fight with the Nazis for survival, or to show a young idealist sarcastic hero the horrors of wars, which can be very traumatic. They have seen a couple of bank robbers with guns… but have they seen someone help them and befriend them get their head blown off? Other than that… I have to agree with you
5: Underwater adventures (Atlantis): We havent seen a real storyline recently with Atlantis and underwater adventures. Sure it sounds interesting to have heroes dropped out of their elements… But in most parts, I agree with your argument here.
Regarding age-changing… far too often, the characters are turned into babies or bratty children. Very little dramatic potential there. However, I think there is more potential with a teen–>adult or adult–>teen transformation. However, this sort of episode or issue is still fairly cliche… if you’ve seen one version of this, I think you pretty much know how any other version would turn out.
Regarding shrinking… Mirage’s TMNT series took this in another direction and had the shrinking last quite a bit longer than usual. (As of ~4 issues later, I think Donatello is still shrunken). I suppose it’s a bit less cheesy if it’s not just an obvious filler issue/episode.
LOL, between the ages of 10 and 13, I was working on a story series called “The Silver War”. Believe it or not, I think I had every single one of those “Plots That Need to Die” in there, haha. They didn’t literally go to World War II, though. In the “time travelling” installment, the main characters went to different influential points in history to stop people like past presidents from getting their brains sucked out by aliens. Otherwise, yes, they did get shrunk to lego-man size, they went to Atlantis, they were turned into children, and did a seven-character-body-swap.
Ah, childhood.
the teen to adult and adult to teen is too cliche in superhero titles… and far too cheezy. its the typical argument between the hero and the sidekick about who has it rougher… Been there. Done that.
Now… the child aspect has a few things someone could do that has been rarely done in the dramatics. If you have a thirty year old hero, with a fiancee and with a life that nothing goes wrong… he turns into a kid, loses 20 years off his life, and welll… If he takes up his same old name, he is in his own shadow, and not to mention his personal life would take the biggest blow. If he stays with his lady love, well… she would be robbing the cradle. And that would put some psychological pressure on the character. If he sees her from afar, he will see her broken hearted from a distance. it would be almost like the character is dead…
There are a few cards left to play that has a lot of potential…
And then there is the fact that if he was the big hero in the world, the villains would think he would be dead… And well… they would go out of control.
And lets not forget the limits of being a kid… pain going to the brain faster, tripping over their own two feet…
There is tons of drama one can pull. Just read Detective Conan/Case Closed, and you will see that there is potential in the drama. first time you see the permanent regression for more than the cheery episode. you notice in the series that the characters are seriously affected by the dissapearance.
Yeah, I agree. That’s why some cartoons are so boring now– they use the same plots every year…
But I hope my plot isn’t played out yet– it’s a guy retrieving a powerful item to impress a girl. But it’s tougher than he thinks. (I won’t say too much yet).
Just a note on the whole “cloning heroes is a cliche” thing…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worm_(Kamen_Rider)
Kamen Rider Kabuto, a tokusatsu series that aired a few years back in Japan, basically took the concept of cloning and made it the basis for the first 75% of their story. There are several moments where heroes discover that they are not human, but instead, are the enemy taken human form and completely convinced of their false identity. It is actually fairly well done.
And yes, these guys are superheroes. XD
I think that most of these “must be killed” plots could work in stories that were built around them. For example, clones in Kamen Rider Kabuto or time travel in Back to the Future or Doctor Who. I think it’s most bothersome when a series tries using one of these cliches as a throwaway episode/issue. Did the writers really bring a shrink-ray into this particular story because it really fit the story’s universe or because they couldn’t think of anything better?
…
Incidentally, I may set up readers for a cliche plotline in SN and use it as a red herring to play them silly. Maybe introduce a MacGuffin device like a bodyswapping device, but never actually use it.
Alternately, I might just show these sorts of weird things happening in the background. My protagonists work at a superagency where life is very unusual, so maybe they see a minor character doing something that seems entirely out of character. (Like one of the security guards sitting with the scientists at lunch). The “security guard” sheepishly mentions that he’s actually a bodyswapped scientist. “That’s the LAST TIME I get within 50 feet of Darpa’s lab. She can get her own damn coffee.”
Hello again, B. Mac.
I was curious about the age change and parallel universes clauses….
What if they’re a part of a specific character’s nature but used in a more creative way?
I’m asking because I have two villians that result from a time manipulation experiment that get hit with that kind of effect… with the powers that come about having that as one of their abilities. And one villian whose whole ability is set around parallel worlds in a sense.
Both time manipulators were older scientists, but one was changed into a kid while the other was altered back into his twenties. They do more than age change people though; it’s just an application of their own time manipulation abilities.
The older of the two ends up becoming the worst of the two because he’s realized how much of his life he’s spent worried about doing the right thing. He ends up forming his own company that develops technology used to empower other people into villains, uses his powers more lethally (turning people to dust, aging their internal organs to such a degree they can’t sustain the body, etc) though he tends to use them less frequently than the other and is far more willing to let minions take care of things. That makes it easier to deny he has any abilities…
The younger is focusing more on what went wrong. He’s still breaking laws, but he’s much more likely to give you asthma through the aging of internal organs or the obvious age change. He has his own secret lab and tends to still be dangerous because of his creative applications of time manipulation on the environment, like generating poisonous gas by reverting the air, etc. If anything, his more open use of his powers and ‘visual’ presence as a ‘villain’ tends to lead people to mistake the elder’s doings for his.
The parallel Earth guy is kind of a reverse of the spectrum to the main character. He’s this punk-ass kid that worships the supervillians of the world because they can take what they want and he thinks they have much more control over their own lives than most people. After several attempts to gain his own superpowers, he develops this ability to summon forth ‘quantum divergences’ of himself as well as an immunity to any of these attempts. In a way, they’re all alternate world equivalents of himself, like… everytime he tries to give himself superpowers, he just adds to the roster of powered folks he can pull from. I figured it was enough of a divergence because he’s not really putting people in parallel Earths, it’s more like he’s summoning equivalents of himself.
I think that turning people older rather than younger isn’t nearly as much of a problem. The problem with turning characters into kids or (worse) babies is that kids/babies rarely have much of a personality and have trouble affecting the plot in any way other than being a MacGuffin that gets kidnapped. In contrast, getting aged might present a protagonist with an interesting challenge: how does he beat the villain without his youthly energy and strength?
As long as the younger one doesn’t get his romance on (I’m looking at YOU, Monster Girl!), I don’t think that the age-change stuff will raise any problems.
…
I’m having more trouble with the parallel Earth guy. After doing a quick read-through (20 seconds), I still don’t clearly understand what his powers are. If the editor evaluating your submission has a similar reaction (“huh?”), I think that it could make him a bit less receptive to the submission as a whole. When you explain this in your submission, I’d recommend trying to get it down to 1-2 sentences, something like “he can summon versions of himself with different superpowers from alternate dimensions.” I’d recommend keeping the mumbo-jumbo (like “quantum divergences”) to a minimum in the submission. You can use that lingo in-story to make the story sound more scientifically plausible, but I don’t think it would help the editor figure out whether the submission is worth publishing.
Ahh, thanks B. Mac!
Yeah, basically that sentence hits exactly what he does really. He summons versions of himself with different super powers from alternate dimensions he creates by purposely trying to get super powers himself.
And nah, the younger one doesn’t get his romance groove on… lol. There was consideration of a ‘sidekick’/'mother’/resources needing an adult like home he smuggled out of a retirement home with a deal, but he’s not exactly the romancing type. It’s funny because Ally considers him his greatest villian because he doesn’t know about the elder of the two having powers.
So much for Sea Devils!
I can’t stand time travel because of the paradoxes it creates, but I do have a few characters that go on one way trips, and some God-level interference with the time stream. I know, it’s an hypocrisy i’m working on. But I think it is also an integral part of making your own comic book universe, unfortunate as it may be.
I do think time-travel stories work when it takes place on a small scale or on the edges of a large event, with effects that scale up or effect things much much later. If you avoid a mistake like Hawkman being 60 years old when he joins the JLA, it should be possible.
As for parallel universes, wouldn’t it be better to have universes that are 90 degrees away from your main storyline? For example, my superhero universe (that has almost zero magic) butts up against a world where magic is an everyday thing. Only a few characters are duplicated. Most superheroes are nobodies in the magic world, and vice versa. Tempest, a lightning storm wielding superhero, meets his alter ego Marc Embers, a high level mage who associates with deities on a regular basis. There is a 10 year age difference, and they bicker about life choices the other one made/didn’t make.
Shrinking? Once in a while you need a guy to get in there and fix the circuits by hand. Plus, if he can get small enough, have him push some atoms around and blow some crap up!
And then someone mistakes him for a bug and squashes him.
hehee! for some reason, I like bugs, so there are a number of bug themed characters in my universe. I even have a cross-over miniseries style event outlined, with just those characters.
my miniaturizing character was inspired (stolen?) from that Tarzan & the Super 7 show
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstretch_and_Microwoman
His name was, when I was 14 and thought it was totally awesome at the time, “Mikeroid Mikerochip”. Now, it’s simply Micron. As I typed that, I realized (20 years later) the alliterative association with my name. Duh.
He’s still part of a teen supergroup in the mid 22c, but he cares more about looking for subatomic life than being a hero.
ok, I know the chaotic tv show doesn’t invole mind swapping, but that show has some good gender swapping and species and so does h.e.r.o ( 2003 revamp of dial h for h.e.r.o) in this last few issues.
I think one way of using a shrinking story is if the shrunk person is small enough to be a cell. Person meets germ which basically overwrites they’re genetic code, this could lead to treatments and attempts to cures while he is a literal walking germ in a sanitary room with people in hazmat suits.
Saving helpless women.
I think Supernatural has done some of these effectively.
Age Change: In Supernatural, a witch plays pokers with humans. Instead of money, the chips represent human years. You get 25 years worth of chips to start. When Dean loses, he is aged to an old man, providing funny times, but Sam is still young and can take over the investigation. So if your character does turn into a baby, just make sure you have someone they call call before full regression to resolve the conflict.
Supernatural also did body-swapping. A young guy casts as spell to switch bodies with Sam. It works mainly because it reveals a lot about the characters. Sam finally lives the “normal” life but has been so changed by his life of hunting monsters that he finds it very odd and has trouble conforming to the norms. Meanwhile, Gary lives it up at Sam, loving the freedom. Only Dean has enough sense to envy (a little) Gary’s apple-pie life.
Haha, yes! I like your style, Heather. I’ve updated the article accordingly.
I’m trying to decide about what I’m doing with my sequel, but I sort of want to use cliche #6 in the first part of the book. Except the girl is anything but helpless.
Stagecast, in an effort to prove how evil he is, kidnaps a random girl from the audience (Who happens to be a friend of the main character. She interrupts him multiple times violently, forcing him to hand her off to two henchmen so he can complete his speech, with her beating them senseless in the background.
“I sort of want to use cliche #6 in the first part of the book. Except the girl is anything but helpless.” If the character is active, I don’t think it would be a problem. If a character is active–doing things, making plays, advancing goals (especially goals against the villain)–then the character SHOULD be in danger*, regardless of gender.
One minor issue that you might want to flesh out is why the villain picks her, though. It may seem a bit contrived that the villain just randomly picks out someone from the auditorium and it happens to be someone close to the hero. One possibility is that she gets picked because she does something (perhaps she is the least obedient of the prisoners or she jeers them during the villain’s speech or whatever).
*The “danger” might not be physical, though. For example, in a story like Mean Girls, the characters aren’t at risk of death or dismemberment so much as social woes (utter humiliation, ostracism, etc).
Nice list, it could deffinately be longer. I’m sure previous posts have said as much though.
Just throwing it out there, but perhaps it would be interesting to do a list on “plots that need to be done more often”.
I think one cliche is this,
Some kid(s) are a part of some big prophecy to save the world.
Ways I think to make them less cliche
The villian has already taken over the world and the protagonists have to free it rather than save it,
or
You tell it from the villian’s point of view- it’s unusual for a story to be told mainly from the antagonist’s point of view.
Also, a cliche way to end a superhero fight is to,
Have the protagonist use some ‘hidden power’ that wasn’t even hinted in the story. This tends to be annoying and negatively unexpected because they wouldn’t even know they could do it and it seems like the author rab out of ideas and just threw that in.
Regarding “saving helpless women,” I made a similar comment in the which female characters are awful” thread. I said that if you can replace the screaming girlfriend with a valuable object, you didn’t write her well enough.
Personally, I’d like to write a “save the girl” story which ends with the hero arriving at the villain’s decimated fortress to find the perfectly unscathed girl tapping her foot and saying “You’re late.”
Or in a comedic setting, the villain makes the hero take her back simply because she’s too much trouble/too annoying.
Or maybe, the kidnapping thing is just a bluff, and the hero’s girlfriend has been working for the villains all along, so she’s in on the plan and acts helpless to lure the hero into a trap! That could be awesome! Has it been done yet?
“The villain has already taken over the world and the protagonists have to free it rather than save it,”
Now with a little polishing, this could be really interesting. Maybe the villain not only beat the heroes, but killed them off as well, becoming supreme ruler of the world. So there’s no heroes left to oppose him…
Wait…wait…if I combine this idea with that one I had the other day…with the chess pieces motif for the heroes…and if the villain created them to oppose him so that he could finally be defeated…so what if the villain had acquired a power that made him literally undefeatable, something with probability maybe…dunno if it’s magic or not, should probably figure that out…and if the heroes he created can bypass this because of something or other…so all he wants is to be defeated so that his life will end…since his invincibility covers him hurting himself, too…so a suicide-by-proxy…Rook, Pawn, Bishop, Knight, King, and Queen…YES! Excellent!
Ladies and gents, I think I just got a new novel idea.
- Wings
Seriously? Those don’t work? I mean they’re classics, they’ve been used at least once by every animated series or comic book or is that why they need to go (they’ve been overused?).
Here’s one more: *The it’s a trap scenario, it’s been used so friggin much I get headaches whenever it happens. They use the whole hero showing up at the last second act a lot but at least it still feels cool after all these decades but the trap scenario is so lame and childish to me now.
“They’ve been used at least once by every animated series or comic book or is that why they need to go (they’ve been overused?).” I can sort of see why you might use one in a long-running series–if you’ve run out of ideas, maybe one of these cliches is the only way you can get the issue/episode out on time. However, when you’re pitching a series, I certainly would not lead with something so cliched unless you’ve somehow made it extraordinarily interesting. Don’t lead with the equivalent of a filler episode.
I see your point. Thanks man!
What upp!
I had a question about one of these shrinking, I read this one graphic novel In the Small where everyone on the entire planet got shrunk, and they showed what happened? If a plot like that was done, would that be interesting?
Anyway my real question was what if the antagonist shrinks the protagonist, and is trying to kill them, or what if the miniature protagonists work together to beat the villain?
I think the first idea would be interesting because its concept is not SURVIVING in a tiny world persay, but having society adapt to the sudden change, etc. Scientists would be trying to find a cure, transportation would be one heck of an issue, communications are for the most part useless, etc. (I also imagine bedbugs would be much more of a problem. xP)
The second one I think is a bit more cheesey? Because it’s the same idea as the protagonists being shrunken and trying to survive, only now they’re trying to survive a crazy antagonist who could crush ‘em with his sneaker. It could work but one would have to be very careful writing it to keep it from being cheesey or ridiculous.
Mhmm well the first idea has already been done lol, I just wanted everyone’s opinion on that type of story.
As for the second one, I might have a battle/or scene like that in my own story I’m writing. What if during the scene, my story is kind of graphic. What if the character managed to kill some of the protagonists or one of em. So it was serious,and the heroes hated this guy.
“I read this one graphic novel In the Small where everyone on the entire planet got shrunk, and they showed what happened? If a plot like that was done, would that be interesting?” Fresh, I haven’t read In the Small, but it sounds like an interesting premise–much better and harder to predict than a brief tangent where the protagonists get shrunk and have to undo it quickly.
That said, In the Small is averaging 2.8 stars (out of 5) in its 11 Amazon reviews, which suggests to me that it didn’t turn out all that well or sell many copies. I noticed many of the reviews knocked on the plot and writing (while most praised the concept and art), which suggests to me that the writer could have executed the premise better than he did.
“Anyway my real question was what if the antagonist shrinks the protagonist, and is trying to kill them, or what if the miniature protagonists work together to beat the villain?” My initial impression is that this premise sounds like a brief tangent where the protagonists get shrunk and have to undo it quickly. Unless you have something really unusual in mind, I feel like I’d be able to predict 90%+ of what happens as soon as the characters get shrunken. How would it be different than most shrinking filler episodes/issues?
Can you tell me what might be done with the shrunken characters? Can you predict Im mean? I just wanna know your prediction, and two it’s sort of a brief tangent, but there’s over lapping consequences one or two of the protagonists probably one might actually be killed by the antagonist.
I guess it would be more of a hunt and kill while they try to regain their size, and deal with the antagonist. most of the time they just deal with a few animals, get back their size, and it’s done, but there’d be consequences, and I don’t remember shrunken heroes ever fighting a villain.
Hmm, okay. My main predictions for a shrinking episode/issue would be:
ACT I:
A. The characters fight the villain and are shrunken OR are voluntarily shrunken to fight off an infection/invasion of another character’s body.
B. The shrunken characters then have to escape from the villain.
ACT II:
C. The characters have to overcome a series of small obstacles that are suddenly much more dangerous, like a cat or rat.
C-2: They make contact with a microscopic civilization.
ACT III:
D. The characters best the villain while shrunken. (This might be beating him in combat or it might just be using stealth/trickery to get to the shrink ray to reverse the process.
E. The characters are unshrunken.
F. Nothing about the episode is ever mentioned again, no matter how helpful a shrink ray might be later on. (When Godzilla’s attacking 10 issues later, shrinking him would be really handy!)
The longer the arc continues, the more chance I think you have of doing happening that the reader hasn’t already seen before in the bajillions of stories that have already used this sort of filler episode/issue.
Thankyou sooooo much for creating this website!!! I’ve been trying to create a comic and have had total blanks on the plot for ages! It’s driven me up the wall a kazillion times..ARK
Anyway I decided to do the shrinking idea…
Could an inspiration type page be added to the site? I dunno if that’s what is already on, but I have been having trouble finding to much of it.
thx
Hmm, what do you mean by an inspiration-type page? (Like a list of stock plots or something?)
Yes, I think so, a bit more plots or ideas and problems that we could use for inspirations to create a better comic. Like a building on fire…
;D
I’ve done a list of stock plots here.
Hey, is it okay if I run a plot idea past you fine people? Unfortunately, I haven’t really written superhero fiction since I was a kid and just starting out on writing, so I have no idea if it’s cliched or overdone.
“Is it okay if I run a plot idea past you?” Sure.
Thanks. ^_^ So, first thing: yes, this is based on a dream, but no, I have not planned it out verbatim from said dream. That would be odd, and would involve a lot of the main character being at Waterworld for some reason. It’s just the seed that came from it.
.) I’m not sure where it would go from there.
So, it starts off with a group of superheroes (still vague on some of the details) coming out into the open about who they are. Off with the capes, off with the masks, abandoning the concept of a secret identity. For a while, the public treats them like celebrities, and they’re universally loved. The government even panders to this, making them honorary police officers, and giving them a budget to help them fight crime.
However, the two central figures of the ‘team’ (or whatever they are) are two brothers, and one of them’s utterly paranoid about all this. He’s convinced it can’t end well, and the public’s bound to turn against them sooner or later, so he leaves and goes on the run, possibly taking a couple of other supers with him.
Ultimately, it turns out he was right, as his brother is ‘accidentally’ killed in a fight that he knows couldn’t possibly have killed him (or something of the like: you can tell this is vague, can’t you?
Basically, I’m just wondering if this idea is worth pursuing, or if it’s hopelessly cliched, has issues with the plot or whatever, and I was just hoping for some feedback.
Thanks muchly! ^_^
“However, the two central figures of the ‘team’ (or whatever they are) are two brothers, and one of them’s utterly paranoid about all this. He’s convinced it can’t end well, and the public’s bound to turn against them sooner or later, so he leaves and goes on the run, possibly taking a couple of other supers with him.” Hmm. If he’s so paranoid about this, why does he choose to let them reveal his identity? (Does he consider leaving the team and going solo rather than revealing his identity? Maybe he considers it, but does not because his brother convinces him to stick with it. Then it might be somewhat ironic that the brother that thought it was safe is the one that gets killed).
It sounds like a pretty fresh take on secret identities, although a few other stories have done the secret-heroes-going-public angle. (For example, that was one of the key elements of Marvel’s Civil War).
Hey again!
“If he’s so paranoid about this, why does he choose to let them reveal his identity?” I think I was going with the assumption that it was an accident- something like there was an emergency and they responded without thinking. They’ve only received their abilities recently, and I think they’re still quite inexperienced in taking care of themselves/dealing with the public, etc, etc. That said, I do like the idea of his brother convincing him to trust him.
My main concern is that a friend of mine has mentioned that it sounds very similiar to the plotline of Heroes- is this something to be overly concerned about? She mentions the fighting brothers and the government pursuing the supers as examples, but I think this is relatively superficial.
Gah! Just occurs to me I’ve dramatically failed to mention the antagonist of the story and the reason the younger brother was killed. That was intelligent… in short, he wasn’t killed at all, but has been taken away by the government for experiments. They’re quite curious as to how he can do what he does. That was why they treated the heroes so well, because they didn’t want them running off, a la paranoid brother.
The government pursuing supernatural people is pretty generic. It’s much less likely to evoke Heroes than, say, someone that can paint prophetic futures. As for the fighting brothers, that’s another generic element that would probably not scream “Heroes.” For example, please see Professor X and Juggernaut, Cyclops and Havok (in the comics, at least), etc. I think you’ll have room to build the relationship in a unique way.
Yay! So they’re tropes, rather than copyrightable plot lines liable to get me sued.
This is good.
Thanks a lot for all your help- I may drop in again when I have more ideas.
You could use a name so we know who you are when you come back. Also B.Mac you edited your name?
Yeah, I added my given name to make it easier on people that wanted to quote me in a relatively serious context (like an article aimed at ESL instructors or English teachers).
Damzo, that’s prolly a good point. I imagine I’ll be wandering about this website a fair bit, given my woeful knowledge of superhero fiction. From now on, I will be… Nibbles?
Now that you have told me about these plots I have the strangest urge to write a superhero origin story featuring all of the above.
I’m questioning the first plot. About nothing interested about shinkring. I think there could be plenty danger. One of my problems with Honey I shrunk the kids it wasn’t interesting enough. It was them running around a garden fighting bigs, a giant baby, and the third one some stupid party. I think it could be done interesting but I need some ideas what are some dangers people would face being an inch or half an inch tall aside from being stepped on and bugs.
I don’t know. There have been so many shrinking stories (throwaway episodes, mostly) that I feel like it’s been mined to death. The only positive about a one-shot shrinking story I can think of is that it’s an easy way for a writer to crank out a story on a deadline. Making the shrinking a more central aspect of the story as a whole would probably help but I think it’d still be pretty predictable/forgettable.
I see what you mean. But I’m gonna make the shrinking a central aspect in the story sort of. I was just asking what are some dangers the characters might face while miniturized. Think sizes from Honey I shrunk the kid aside from people, and bugs. What else I thought of vacuums, or something. Any ideas? And some dangerous enviorments, so far I thought party.
Hey there. I’m considering writing a story about a group of heroes, and I have some plot ideas that I would like some feedback on.
1. The leader of the group, Franz. He is extremely faithful to God, and is an all around good leader. But as the story’s events transpire, he comes to think that God no longer cares for him. So he basically decides to cut all ties to God and throws his Bible off of a building. This, coupled with a few arguments, causes him to leave the team.
2. Lucy (Actually a guy, it’s a funny play on his real name, Luke). He is romantically involved with another member of the group, Zero. During one of the fights, Lucy fails to stop the villain from killing several innocent bystanders, which he takes hard. Afterwards, a demon named Andras confronts him, and says that he can give him enough power to stop the villain, to which Lucy agrees. While he is possessed, Zero becomes pregnant with his child (Which could have some sort of consequences). However, as Andras becomes more powerful, Lucy becomes more violent, which culminates in a fight where he ruthlessly kills several people. At this point, he would realize what is going on, and somehow manage to exorcise Andras, but he would be left in a coma. And Andras would move on to possess Franz, who would be in a severely weakened state.
What do you think?
I remember every cartoon show I ever saw as a kid had a body-swap episode, and that didn’t bother me. I actually enjoyed the change in the statue quo most of the time. What did bother me in almost every instance was they would somehow switch bodies, but keep their original vocal cords. What was worse was half the time nobody noticed that Frank was now walking around with Sue’s voice! It was maddening.
“Nobody noticed that Frank was now walking around with Sue’s voice!” Kids–especially those that missed the first few minutes of the show–would probably have trouble understanding what was happening if the voices didn’t swap as well. It sounds like a case of clarity taking precedence over realism. As for nobody else noticing, most casts will get massively stupid whenever the plot calls for it. For example, ANY disguise–no matter how weak–will fool everybody.
…
TV Tropes mentions a few examples of body-swapping episodes, but it is definitely not ubiquitous. In contrast, I think shrinking episodes are probably the most common of these throwaway plots because they’re a one-and-done episode that can be inserted into pretty much any cartoon and more than a few live-action series (including Family Matters–what the hell!). My impression of these one-and-done episodes is that they’re driven mainly by intense deadlines and the need to keep churning out episodes. However, I will note that it does not come up in novels nearly as much and I don’t think there’s much of a market for it in novels. If you go down that path, I’d recommend writing in some dynamite characterization to make up for a plot that’s likely more formulaic than most submissions.
Dude, I need some advice!
I’ve started my idea for a story sort-of like a batman meets spiderman mix, BUT it needs to be drastically different and just as gritty. The basic plot is that this guy’s family was murded in a house fire. He grew up adopted by his fathers co-worker and learned to defend himself on the streets of this city ( I made the city kind of like a New York relative almost) eventually he goes to kill his families murderer AND…fails. He joins the police force and finally the SWAT agents. He then resigns becuase of criminal connections in the force and is alone. His family’s murderer is back in town, a criminal justice attorney is tracking him down, and the ex-cop decides to destroy his connections by becoming a stealth-vigilante. As you can imagine the villains pile on.
…Help?
Hello, Creed. I’m not sure what you’re looking for, but here are some thoughts and suggestions:
–When you’re pitching this to publishers, I’d recommend not mentioning it’s similar to Spider-Man unless there’s something here I’m not seeing. Batman and perhaps the Punisher sound closer to the gritty tone you’re going for.
–What’s the main character’s personality like? I think that’s probably the best place to distinguish the story from Batman or Spider-Man. My standard example here is that my comic series (The Taxman Must Die) has a character whose origin is extremely similar to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (he’s a crime-fighting mutant reptile), but his personality is different enough that he probably won’t feel like a rip-off. His goals/motivation and voice could also help distinguish him from Batman and Spidey. (For example, Spidey quips in combat, whereas Batman is almost always all-business).
–One possibility that would help distinguish the plot would be to play up the mystery/investigation angle. He is a SWAT officer, so presumably he’d have the investigative skills to handle a more complicated case than, say, Spidey would. In contrast, the most the Punisher usually does in the way of an investigation is threatening and/or torturing criminals until they tell him who to go after next.
Thanks, gives me some thoughts.
His personality without the mask is pretty narrow. He’s angry, filled with rage that he hides pretty well, even though his character leans out as the story progresses. With the mask on, usually he’s sarcastic or arragant but most of the time he’s focused and silent.
I like the idea of him being able to break down harder to solve cases. As to his goal, it’s to show the criminals how close they came to dying. He’s sometimes referred to as “Death’s advocate” but he dosen’t kill criminals unless they’ve gone mad and tried to skewer him. This seems to be pretty much his status, any other suggestions?
@Creed- is he angry all the time? Whats he like with other people? Does he have and close friends or relationships? I like you background story but what are his powers, if any. what is it that he does?
@B. Mckenzie- “(For example, Spidey quips in combat, whereas Batman is almost always all-business).” I have a character that I feel combines Spidey’s wit and Batman’s seriousness. Kind of like threating trash talk, for lack of a batter example.
Do you think I should keep this or go one way or the other?? :S
“I have a character that I feel combines Spidey’s wit and Batman’s seriousness. Kind of like threatening trash talk, for lack of a batter example.” My guess is that it’ll probably feel more like (a particularly unfriendly) Spider-Man than Batman, unless he has a really good reason to be talking in combat. Batman does a lot with stealth, and talking makes it much harder to surprise people. If he’s giving away that advantage, is he doing it for a reason? (For example, in a hostage standoff, convincing a criminal to release a hostage might be more important than maintaining stealth).
My two main considerations on this front are:
1) Unless the character has a good reason to talk, bantering with enemies may make the combat seem less serious. (In the Spider-Man movies, I think they pretty much cut out the quipping for Spidey).
2) When Spider-Man quips, it’s usually pretty light-hearted and gently immature. I think it would take a defter touch to handle combat dialogue that’s more like trash-talk. I think the main potential problem for your main characters so far has been that their lack of empathy and maturity compromises their likability. I could envision scenarios where trash-talking exacerbates this problem. I would recommend doing whatever it takes to keep your main characters at least vaguely likable, or all is lost.
Fortunately, I think there are alternatives way to more smoothly show a character’s personality in interactions with villains. I don’t know if this is applicable to your series, but two of my opposed characters know each other well, and one sends the other ominous clues to fluster the other into making a mistake. (E.g. they had once discussed a particular chess game, so Antihero 1 bites off the head of the white king used in that game and sends it to Villain 1, perhaps with a message like “Garry Kasparov sends his regards”*).
*Kasparov is best-known for getting ground down by a machine.
I see what you guys mean.
The protagonist has no superpowers; he carries firearms instead, however, he doesn’t kill people (usually hits them in the leg or their own firearm to scare them.) He’s not always angry, more…paranoid than anything else. He’s seen the bad in people and never let it go, i guess.
I was kind of apprehensive on the talking thing too. You’re right, both of you. Shadow (which is the name of the character) doesn’t say much when fightng or stealth manuvering. The only time he does is when he’s one on one with the big baddy’s or one in particular. Their not quibbs or trash talk, more like Death threats. He scares them with both silence and a slow pased sentence. Shadow ends up in a team (one assassin who tried to kill him, his girlfriend, and a mentally disturbed scythe lover) so he’s not alone in that sense, and he changes drastically to becoming more open. But he’s seen death and misery so it drives him through rage and potential madness.
The story is literally a mister of who controls power, while the hero tries to keep himself alive and others too. Does that make any sense? I apologize, I may need some more help.
@B. Mckenzie- Thank you, and yeah i agree, i guess the banter during the comabt does make it seem less serious. Would you mind stopping by on my review forum and giving me some feedback? thank you!