Jul 08 2009
Featured: Which female characters are the most awful and why? Who’s awesome?
Which female characters do you think are the most awful? Which are the most excellent? What separates the two? Marissa and I really appreciate your feedback; Marissa’s writing an article for us about how to do female characters well. (You can see our article on male characters here).
Personally, I’m a bit annoyed by female characters that care a lot about clothes. I think it’s a fine line between something that is probably true (that women typically care more than men about fashion and clothes) and making the character an unbelievable caricature. Although some caricatures work very well, like the protagonist of Clueless, I think it’s usually pretty hard to care about a story about a caricature.
As far as female characters I really like, I thought that the cast of Mean Girls was three-dimensional and well-rounded. The characters generally felt believable to me.
If you can’t think of characters from popular media (an obvious example is Arya, or Bella), stereotypes or traits work as well. Just list off which you’d like me to talk about, and I’ll work from there.
Mean Girls was probably the single greatest teen girl movie ever made. It perfected and distilled the concepts of cliques, bitchiness and teen drama into a single, ideal teen girl film.
Anyway, it’s very, very difficult to make a valley girl likable. The only way I can think of is to add another dimension or two of depth to her character. But usually valley girls are all like ‘omigawd I just broke a nail! Oh my God did you guys hear about x and y? They like, totally like, were seen like, doing something and it was like, weird and stuff’.
It gets REALLY annoying REALLY quickly.
Case in point- I forget which one it was but the valley girl from Totally Spies (I think it was Clover).
I hate, hate, hate it when girls are represented as helpless damsels in distress. Sure, everyone needs help now and then, but why the hell don’t they actually fight back against their kidnappers/the aliens etc instead of giving up?
I recall a scene from Spiderman 2 where Aunt May hit Dr. Octopus with her umbrella. That is much more amusing than watching someone scream “Spiderman, save me!” God knows I would not hesitate to break someone’s wrist if they laid a hand on me. Also another part from Kingdom Hearts – Xaldin has Belle captive, and what does she do? She elbows him in the guts, snatches the rose from him and rescues herself. One word: awesome.
It’s not so bad when they fight back, but are overpowered, but it still seems cliché and kind of degrading. I wrote a little scene where Atalya is attacked, but just as the other heroes get to the stronghold, a goon smashes through the window and falls six storeys. They hear more crashing inside, and then she opens the door, strolls out covered in their blood and says “I appreciate the effort, but these guys are amateurs.”
Another thing I hate is when girls give up everything for guys. “Sure, you saved me from the dragon, so I’ll just marry you without getting to know you and leave my whole family behind!”
Girls that care a lot about clothes annoy me, too, so I tend to avoid it like the plague. None of my female characters have an obsession over clothing. (With the exception of Amy Belle, who wishes to be a model/actress and has a model for a mother, and has it as an unsympathetic trait. She’s highly materialistic and doesn’t hesitate to manipulate Isaac)
two of the best females i’ve ever seen are Nariko and Kie from Hevenly sword
one fact i hate though is alot of chraters were almost nothing
There are generally two types of female characters I hate:
1. Those that are useless. See above for clarification. (XD)
2. Those that feel like they were written by a rabid, mouth-foaming feminist.
Brett, was issue two aimed at me? Haha. If I was to choose between classing myself as a feminist or not, I would be leaning towards feminism.
I wouldn’t say I’m rabid, but I just see so many female characters treated like objects and it annoys me to no end. I hate stereotypes, which is why I try to defy them through my characters.
There is one thing I don’t entirely understand about feminism. Feminists want to be equal to men, right? And then everything is a double standard. It is seen as perfectly acceptable for a woman to hit her cheating boyfriend, but if he does the same, he will be seen as abusive. She can then proceed to throw him outside into the pouring rain and throw a suitcase at him, but if he did that, there would be cries of “what a jerk!” Don’t get me wrong, no one should hurt anyone, but it seems a little contradictory.
Further expansion on the hostage topic I raised in my previous comment. When male characters are kidnapped, they tend to put up a fight. It’s realistic, and it’s not limited to guys. In real life, girls don’t just give up. We claw, punch, kick and try to fight our way out of a situation. In fiction, however, they tend to faint and await rescue. Do you see fictional guys do that? Nope. Why should girls be any different?
Woo hoo! Y’all finally took my suggestion!
@ Brett
I agree with you there.
@ Whovian
On average, girls aren’t as physically strong as guys — though firearms and tasers can fix that. My issue with “damsels in distress” is that it makes the character one-dimensional. If you can replace the damsel with a valuable object, then you didn’t write your female character correctly. Give her a goal or a role that isn’t dependent upon a man, though you don’t have to be über-feminist about it — it can be as simple as “I want to master X skill or find Y object.”
Just my $0.02 regarding this.
Whoops, I forgot to add one thing: Please, please, PLEASE do not use rape or other sexual traumas as a quick-and-dirty way to give a female character a tragic backstory! (See “Rape is the New Dead Parents” on TV Tropes.) I will confess, I’ve given a female character this sort of backstory, though with something far milder than sexual assault.
Yeah, using sexual assault to traumatise a character is a lame way to go about it, and it is essentially a shortcut. I prefer it when it needs to be explained more. As a rule of thumb, I try to make explanations of backstory more than a sentence and explain it in a couple of paragraphs or less. For the purpose of example, I will type up a bit of backstory from one of my many ideas. The character is as of yet unnamed, so let’s just call him Jay.
“Jay stopped abruptly as he entered the kitchen, placing his hand on the cool metal doorframe. All he had wanted was a glass of milk, but instead he was met with the sight of his mother’s body on the tiled floor, laid in a small pool of blood. He didn’t take a moment to process it, and instead seized a large knife from the kitchen drawer. Jay stepped around her, not looking down, and turned the corner.
He saw his mother’s assailant walking down the hall, away from the body, still with the bloodied blade in hand. Rage overtook the ten year old, and letting out a choked scream, he drove his own weapon into the robber’s spine.”
In less than a page, it has been established that Jay’s mother was murdered and that he then killed her killer.
Hmm, I may use this one for the five page challenge.
Yeah, I know girls are generally physically weaker, but that doesn’t mean we can’t fight our way out with some logic and a few swift kicks to the groin.
LIZ. WILSON. From Garfield.
We all remember her as being the sarcastic vet with the snarky attitude. So why has she been retconned into a Shallow Love Interest? Normally Jon’s stupid antics would embarrass her, but what does she do? Smile like it’s SO ADORABLE. Then they make out. She hasn’t been shown doing veterinary work in over two years.
I have nothing against a damsel in distress, depending on circumstances. A character who has previously been established as strong and competent should not be demoted to this role. It should also be made clear that it’s impossible to for the damsel to take action on her own, like Princess Peach does in Paper Mario. But basically, as long as she’s not a weepy, sobby wreck of faux-feminity, I can overlook it.
Chances are, it’s a character who’s been kidnapped, NOT a writer going “all chicks act like this; they’re so inferior.”
Useless female characters are always thought of as sexist, but not useless males. I think girls can be too sensitive about it.
Jon tried so hard to get any attention from any woman, but then he finally met someone who was actually three dimensional and appeared often. When he finally started going out with her, she just changed into a shallow character. He may as well have gone out with one of the oneshot characters!
My comment was prompted by you, RW, yes. However, I wouldn’t say you were the object of it, if that makes sense.
Actually, I partially agree with you. none of my female characters are helpless objects. I’m even trying to make a humorous point of that when one of my male characters (Alex’s friend, Jacques, the one who thinks he’s The Chosen One) tries to be chivalrous and rescue a girl he thinks is in distress when Alex refuses to. As it turns out, her capture was all part of the plan (which Jacques just screwed up) and now they have to rescue him, who actually is in distress now. Oh the irony. XD
When I say “written by a rabid, mouth-foaming feminist,” I mean when there’s a complete role reversal and the female characters are ridiculously competent while the male characters are the ones “in distress.” That was the one issue I had with Disney’s “Kim Possible.” It seemed like nearly every male character was a nuisance (her brothers), extremely passive (Wade and most of Kim’s crushes), or completely useless (Ron Stoppable). Although the show did see some improvements (Wade left his room and Ron learned to be somewhat useful), that’s still a major bone I have to pick with it. My dream episode of Kim Possible would be for her to meet a character like Batman or GI JOE’s Snake Eyes. A male character who can put her in her place, or at least match her.
Btw, while females do fight back, its very different than guys. I think they tend to do more chaotic and emotional flailing, whereas guys will probably go more for punching and well-placed blows. In other situations, I think that females are more likely to try subtle attack methods, whereas guys (ninjas being the HUGE exception) probably won’t.
Almost forgot. Girls are also more likely to go for cheap shots in my opinon. Why?
1. They are generally physically weaker. Cheap shots can give an edge to a weaker fighter.
2. Girls are more likely to fight based on pure emotion. Anyone who has seen a catfight knows this.
3. Girls can’t empathize with how much it hurts to get hit in the groin.
4. Girls have no rules when they fight, since there’s not really one definitive “off limits” spot.
One thing that I notice though. Guys will generally go for blows to the chest and stomach, sometimes the face. Girls, not so much. They tend to go for the face more often. Why is that? And does it really hurt girls that much to get hit in the chest? Because if so, that could nullify my #4.
Yeah, it really does….
But I agree about the rabid, mouth-foaming feminists.
I’m amused to remember reading Isaac Asimov writing about how (when he was a kid), he didn’t even like to see women in the science fiction stories he read.
It wasn’t because he had a problem with women as much as the fact that women in the stories of the time (1930′s) existed only to be a love interest/be kidnapped and rescued.
That being said, what irritates me about female characters is the same thing that irritates me about male characters — cliches.
The cliches are just different for women. None that really bother me are coming to mind, but any character that exists as little more than a cliche isn’t very interesting to read about.
The female character that exists only to be a voice for feminism irritates me, but so do female (or male) characters that exist as little more than the author’s voice about a particular issue.
There are a few kinds of female character I can find dislikable.
1. Passive, damsel-in-distress types: Covered already. I have no problem with a female character being portrayed as weak, as long as it’s because of her character and not the fact that she’s female. If her role could be filled by an inanimate object, that’s bad. If it could be filled by an equally-distressed guy, that’s fine. Passive characters are generally not very interesting anyway, but I particularly dislike it when female characters have the “but I could break a nail/ruin my clothes” thing going on. Yes, some girls are materialistic and shallow. Some guys are too. Again, if this occurs, it needs to be because of the character and not the female.
2. Super-competent feminists: I have no problem with competent women or feminists, or even both at the same time. What I do have a problem with is when the super-competent feminist makes every other character look pathetic, including the men, and the “weak” women. This shouldn’t be happening. SCF will have her own flaws, just like the men. When she succeeds where they fail, all the time, I get really sick of it. For a start, it gives feminists a bad name and makes us all look like men-haters. I consider myself to be very feminist, but I think men and women are equal, albeit different. Secondly, the character at this point is close to becoming a Mary Sue, which is really not the “strong female character” that I wanted.
3. Counters to every female stereotype: To be fair, I haven’t seen this very often outside of fanfiction, but I think it might be a particularly easy trap for men to fall into. Basically, the character is female, but she doesn’t fit into any female stereotype or, really, have any traits which are a result of her being female. She could just as easily be a male character, the author just felt that they needed one of the characters to be a girl. These characters can be compelling and sympathetic, but they just don’t feel realistic. I haven’t met a girl yet who doesn’t meet at least one female stereotype, even if very loosely (I’m considered fairly tomboy-ish, but I am distinctly girly. At least in real life). Um, I’m not sure if I’ve made clear what I’m driving at on this one, but basically if the character is a girl for no other reason than to have a girl, it’s bad.
Flat love-interests, bitchy minor/major antagonists, and a whole host of other annoying female characters usually fall under one of the above 3, I think.
Cliche-Love interest discovers hero’s identity as the guy she has a friendly relationship with, then feels like she has to be with him because she loves his hero identity, then later breaks up with him under the fact that she can’t take him risking his life DESPITE KNOWING THIS AND STILL DATE HIM PRECEDING THE BREAKUP!
@ Holliequ: I’m kinda confused. I thought feminists, by definition, were men-haters (at least in the 1960′s). You know, role reversal, pushing for boys to be taught like girls, anti-masculinity in any form or fashion, anti-chivalry, anti-marriage, female world domination, etc. Could you clarify that? Honest question.
@ all posters (esp. females): How would you feel about a ruthless female character whose style vaguely resembled, among others, Darth Vader? Just wondering.
However, it is worth noting, that Justice League and Justice League Unlimited used a slightly feminist character, Wonder Woman, very well. Even though she was assertive and not used to dealing with men, she didn’t disregard them as inferior and was even impressed by the male members of the team. And I find it particularly interesting that of all the male JLA members, she was most impressed with the one who had no powers: Batman. Go Bats!
@ Brett
A ruthless female supervillain isn’t too bad. Just do it well, and everything would be fine.
@Brett, regarding feminism: Eh, maybe that is the technical definition, but when I said “feminist” I meant ‘one who believes in the ideal that women are equal to men, with all that that implies’. Perhaps that could also lead, somewhat, to the other stuff you stated, but I’m not that extreme. (I dislike marriage for entirely different reasons, haha.) My apologies for the confusion there.
Actually the technical definition of ‘feminist’ says nothing about hating men, it’s just about believing that women should be more proactive and equal to men. Many people are technically ‘feminist’ without even realising it.
Careful now, let’s avoid topic drift.
Good call, Contra Glove.
I agree with most of the stuff already said but would like to add that I find the best female characters are protagonists almost exclusively, whereas the best male characters can be both protagonist, supporting characters or antagonists. Ben Linus and Adam Monroe, from Lost and Heroes respectively, remain favourite characters as does minor character Ethan Romm from Lost. I’m not sure why I find this but it may be I find it harder to relate to a female character unless she is the POV since I’m male (although not especially masculine
).
Mr. Brit: It may not be because you’re male that female characters often seem uninteresting when they aren’t protagonists.
Lots of female characters (who aren’t protagonists) still get used either as a reward (the main character saves the day and gets the girl), extra motivation to take out the villain (see further. women in refrigerators), or as background (the protagonist is married, but his wife doesn’t appear much).
Characters like that aren’t very interesting by nature since they exist only to move the story along as opposed to actually guiding and changing the story by their actions.
By contrast, women who are protagonists guide the plot by their actions and choices (if the writer is doing their job).
Olive from Popeye was a terrible female character. Then there was Penelope Pitstop as well.
My absolute least favorite is the action bimbo, who shows how “empowered” she is by dressing like a… *ahem*.
I was a tomboy as a child… Still am, a little bit.
She isn’t feminine any more than a bishonen is masculine, but pretends to be an ideal woman. I think they’re both basically caricatures designed to appeal to the opposite gender’s id.
I’m actually more annoyed by characters who are sexist in female favor than the other way around, for these reasons:
1.) I see them more often. That’s probably a biggie.
2.) I don’t really feel the need to be “empowered” because I’ve never been “depowered.” Maybe I’m just lucky?
3.) Badly written internet reviews praise them.
4.) As a girl, I feel like the more extreme examples(mostly in fanfic, thankfully) try to force me into a mold. A weird mold. ‘~’
Also, I wish guys would show their female characters to real women and ask if the clothes make sense. My superheroines usually end up with a skirt over a jumpsuit; anybody who would show her midriff, let alone have holes all over her clothes, while fighting super-criminals would have very bad things attempted on her and should know it. And would thus be an idiot.
It doesn’t just apply to superheroes, though; average girl characters invented by guys sometimes look too masculine in their overall style to me, even if they’re wearing obviously female clothes. (Which makes me worry about my male characters…)
Another peeve of mine is when tomboys are automatically assumed to be lesbians or a middle point on some sort of spectrum between lesbians and typical girls.
I don’t know how common that last one is, I just saw it in a couple of places and it upset me.
A non-sexual example of a female character that bothered me was Helen from the video game NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams. Will, the male playable character, was well characterized, had interesting relationships with other characters and grew over the course of the story. Helen whined and flipped her hair. Will gave an emotional speech in his ending. Helen whined and talked like a five-year-old(I think she’s twelve). Helen was also actually more stereotypically masculine than Will: she talked less about her life and feelings, and sounded more competitive in her version of one scene. I got the impression that whoever wrote her dialogue was intimidated by writing a girl and so made her do the opposite of what he’d imagine himself doing, except when she had to talk brave for plot reasons.
I think incompetent heroines are a little annoying… they tryto get things done, but absolutely NEVER succeed without the hero bailing them out.
An example is Rinoa from the video game “Final Fantasy 8”. (Nobody get mad about this one. I know she has fans). Every time she tries to be brave and independent during a crisis, she only manages to get herself into WORSE trouble and make the hero’s job twice as difficult. And she’s supposed to be the leader of group of activists, for Pete’s sake.
Doesn’t that mean she ought to be a LITTLE capable?
The first time she tries to do anything on her own, she just manages to get herself captured/possessed and almost killed by the villainess, almost immediately. Because she quickly screwed up her personal mission, the hero’s mission was TWICE as hard because, on top of everything else, he had to go and save her. And when he DID save her, she hugged his arm and almost cried about how scared she was.
I think I’d have been much more satisfied with that whole scenario if Rinoa had accomplished at least SOMETHING.
It’s fine if she messes up and gets captured. But her effort never amounted to anything. For example, she could have distracted the villainess long enough for the hero to complete his mission, or nabbed an important power-artifact from the enemy, or foiled the villainess’s plan by exposing her plot or getting in the way.
But no… All that happened was she got into trouble, and the hero had to go save her. I wonder how she ever got to be the leader of an activist faction in the first place if she can’t even make the best out of a bad situation?
It looks like a lot of us have a problem with overly-passive female characters.
I think female “magic healers” are prone to this problem.
Many female healers are delicate, gentle, kind, nurturing, unfailingly polite, etc. And they can never hold their own in battle, not even a little… All the other heroes on the quest jump into battle and really put their lives on the line for something they believe in, and while the healer plays an important role, she is rarely designed to kick any ass.
Why can’t the female healers be at least SOMEWHAT competent in fighting, instead of always needing to be defended by the other warriors? If she’s gonna be out there healing folks on the battle field, she’s gotta be able to protect herself out there, at least to some degree.
I always thought it’d be more fun for the female healer to also be the team’s jokester or prankster, or maybe she’s a bit antisocial and accidentally intimidates the people she’s healing instead of being so soothing, heh-heh. I don’t think these characters should exist solely to “heal” and “nurture”.
I’m totally guilty of bad female-healer design, by the way. I’ve got a character named Sagami who TOTALLY embodies everything I dislike about this character…
Passive female characters annoy me, too. What’s the point of having them there if they’re not going to present alternatives?
CHARACTER 1: Let’s pull his eyes out!
PASSIVE 1: Oh, um, okay…
SANE CHARACTER: Or maybe we could just, y’know, not torture him. You guys are barbarians. I’m going to stand by this door until you guys back off.
Then Character would have to get past Sane, thus creating a small obstacle.
And yes, if there is a female character for the sake of having a girl, then there is less potential for having a three dimensional, likable person.
“Another peeve of mine is when tomboys are automatically assumed to be lesbians or a middle point on some sort of spectrum between lesbians and typical girls”. Me too. I have been described as a boy in a girl’s body on more than one occasion. Yet, I am heterosexual. Because a girl acts like a guy does not mean she is a lesbian.
The gentle healer type generally annoys me, too, because they tend to fit under the passive character type. I can tolerate Yuna of Final Fantasy X, because though she acts like a doormat, she can be utterly awesome at times. (Spoiler) She has to choose between making the people of her country happy and a life of freedom, so she gives it up to be married to a guy who had tried to kill her, and who she killed in retaliation. (Since he had a strong connection to the mortal world, he can stay as long as he still has that connection) She almost punches him during the ceremony, and later fights him along with her friends. Yuna then kisses her true love, Tidus. She has to fight against some of the world’s strongest enemies with her friends and manages to destroy a perpetually appearing monster for good. She loses Tidus, but during the next game she becomes more confident and will give out pain to anyone who gets in her way of tracking her boyfriend down again (end spoiler)
If I ever use a female healer type, I will make her more violent than anyone else in the story.
HEALER: Tell me where the MacGuffin is or I’ll snap your spine!
GOON: I don’t know!
HEALER: (throws him on floor and kicks him) C’mon guys, let’s find someone who actually has a brain.
I think it’s a bit insulting when comic books use their characters as sex-fodder. The message from the comic book team is pretty clearly that “we think you’re the kind of guy that will get off on this.”
Also, rape scenes. I am totally uninterested in reading about characters that get raped. (They tend to be women). There may be readers out there that find rape compatible with entertainment. I find it hard to imagine that there are many.
Alternately, if you’re interested in writing a serious drama about surviving a rape*, then I would recommend doing it as a novel because novels have the length to handle that kind of heavy material. (Also, the readers for really serious stories tend to be more receptive to novels than comic books).
*Which I will not read, by the way.
I detest valley girl stereotypes, which is why Belinda is supposed to be a subversion of the valley girl stereotype.
Back to annoying girlfriends from Garfield…on the cartoon, we’ve got Garfield’s longtime-crush-now-girlfriend Penelope.
On the episode she was introduced in, she at least tried to defend herself when her ex attacked her. On the second episode, she’s just walked out on Garfield because she believes he’s cheating. Then she gets captured. Does she claw the guy to death? No.
“Garfield!! HELP!!”
From that episode on, she existed for no reason other than to pick up the Conflict Ball so she and Garfield could bicker like two-year-olds, break up, then realize they really do wub each other.
And (though she was awful) she was treated very disrespectfully at times. There was one episode where she was upset with Garfield for being a jerk. Granted, she was being immature, but the moral was essentially, “Garfield doesn’t have to change; Penelope should stop whining.” Garfield even apologized, but she told him it was okay. So he went back to being a jerk!
Obnoxiously cute little girls are even worse than obnoxiously spunky little boys. A cute little girl (like Molly from Heroes) cannot do anything except induce an “aww!” reaction* or get herself kidnapped/endangered. In contrast, an obnoxious boy can advance the plot in a way that doesn’t make him seem like a total liability to the older characters. For example, Mikah from Heroes has rigged an election and masterminded a rebellion. In contrast, Molly can’t even use her telepathic-location ability without getting herself into trouble.
By and large, a character that is supposed to be cute cannot be competent (and vice versa).
*Speaking of Garfield, Nermal is an interesting subversion of the super-cute little girl. Her cuteness is supposed to be obnoxious, which makes her an obstacle for the main character.
What about the female characters from Friends or Will and Grace?
).
Another thing I hate is some women in movies, especially the ones about high school. For example, take the new one, Angus Thongs and Perfect Snogging. On the back, it reads “and [Character's Name] is after high school sex god [Character's Name].”
Or A Cinderella Story, starring Hillary Duff. (And I love Hillary Duff, haha
And “[Character's Name] shares e-mails with a mystery guy who turns out to be a high school hunk.”
I mean, come on. Whatever happened to the Average Guy getting the girl, huh?
I think that there are more than a few stories about Average Guys getting a smoking-hot girl, like Spiderman or Transformers or Stardust, but more often than not I think they’re aimed at guys rather than girls. In contrast, I think a story about an Average Girl getting a super-desirable guy is more likely to appeal to girls than guys. (Twilight, Cinderella, most romance movies, etc).
It’s all about whose wishes are being fulfilled. “You couldn’t get a date with anyone half this desirable in real life, but at least a character just like you can!”
^That last thing you said was the appeal of Twilight distilled into one sentence.
Speaking of Twilight, how is it possible for a female writer to make such a horrible female character? She used a lot of the things we’ve complained about here, like Bella being totally useless, totally dependent on Eddie boy, jizzing every time he looks at her, being as useful as a macguffin.
The list goes on…
“Speaking of Twilight, how is it possible for a female writer to make such a horrible female character?” I think that the author wanted Bella to serve as a vessel for the readers rather than a character in her own right. So (as far as I can tell) she doesn’t have much of a personality or do much on her own. In some ways, it’s easier for a reader to insert herself into the story if the main character lacks a personality. Bella is mainly there to go through the motions of a steamy romance with an outrageously hawt guy.
Yeah, I remember reading somewhere an abridged version of the Twilight script and Bella said ‘I don’t know, I’m just a hollow shell that every teenage girl in the audience can project their personalities into’.
But that doesn’t excuse the useless nature of her character and how she constantly needs saving.
“*Speaking of Garfield, Nermal is an interesting subversion of the super-cute little girl. Her cuteness is supposed to be obnoxious, which makes her an obstacle for the main character.”
Nermal is supposed to be male. His official profile acknowledges the fans’ confusion.
Those awful CGI movies retconned his personality to “obnoxious little boy” for that reason, but he was arguably worse.
The 10 Times Shorter and 100 Times More Honest version of Twilight, Tom? Haha, I loved that.
“KRISTEN STEWART: Me? Oh, no. I’m just a hollow placeholder for all of the teenage girls in the audience to project their personalities onto. I have none of my own whatsoever.”
Nermal’s a guy? Ack. Haha. Ok. I swear I won’t follow that down the Tangent Hole.
@B. Mac: Yeah, that’s the one. In fact I probably heard about it on this site. If not here then TV Tropes probably. I’m sure that’s the page quote for something.
Speaking of Tropes: I just got a superhero-related trope launched. Ain’t I awesome?
I’m interested to know which trope, but that’s sort of unrelated to the topic thread, so could you tell me on your review forum or mine?
See your review forum.
Back to the topic here- is it worth talking about female characters we like, or characteristics of likable female characters? Personally I like Superman The Animated Series’ take on Lois Lane (and Lana Lang for that matter). I can’t pretend to know what the comic versions are like but they’re both very likable in the show. Or is that not relevant to this topic?
It’s totally worth talking about loveable female characters. It would probably help Marissa if we talked about dislikes AND likes! Earlier, Whovian mentioned Belle’s awesome Xaldin-escaping scene from KH2. I majorly agree with that – it was awesome. In fact, Belle herself is awesome.
But I also love that Belle managed to be adventurous AND feminine. As a kid, I didn’t feel like I had to “be more like boys” to be as cool as Belle, lol.
Belle is my favorite Disney princess because she isn’t wishy-washy, faint-hearted, helpless, or dependent. Disney heroines like Snow White or Sleeping Beauty never had much ambition for themselves other than “finding their true love and getting married”. They depended on other people to protect and save them all the time, and their “big prize” in the end was meeting a handsome prince. Mostly, all those two did was sob or faint whenever things got bad, but not Belle.
Belle had a personality and dreams of her own that DIDN’T just revolve around love. She was adventurous, smart, and didn’t need someone to come to her defense all the time. And all the while, she wasn’t tomboyish, either. I love tomboyish characters.
But she’s not perfect, either. When the Beast scares her into breaking her promise and running away from the castle, she’s acting on pure emotion and doesn’t even consider how dangerous the woods are at night. So the Beast was injured trying to save her, but Belle actually DID try to fight for herself, even though she was terrified. She took a swing at a wolf’s snout with a branch, but there was no way she could win.
She was no warrior, remember. The Beast DID save her, but she wasn’t all sobby about it. She and the Beast even argued LOUDLY about whose fault it was, but Belle still wasn’t too proud to thank him for saving her, and help him with his wounds.
I felt like this advanced the story much better than regular old “Rinoa gets kidnapped” stuff. She didn’t just make the situation worse for the hero. She got herself into trouble because she reasoned emotionally, but it was still for an understandable (and not a ditzy) reason.
And another thing, I also love that Belle didn’t mope around or become depressed as the Beast’s new prisoner. Of course, she was upset at losing her father and being trapped, and she did cry. Women do that – we cry. But still, even after fighting with the beast and feeling miserable, she DID try to make the best of a bad situation.
After having some time to regain herself, she actually risked defying the Beast by exploring the castle and letting her adventurous nature show itself. I don’t feel like Belle ever acted the role of a “victim”.
She got into a difficult situation, but still tried to be positive about it after she calmed down. Even though she DID have to be rescued in the film, it was pulled off well. Belle rocks.
Actually, as a random remark here…
I think there’s a balance to be found between “dependent” and “independent” heroines.
Many people dislike wishy-washy heroines that are completely dependent upon the heroes to make their lives bright.
But overly indepedent heroines can be annoying, too.
Again, using the Belle example…
Belle isn’t dependent on anyone, and she can handle herself mostly, but she still needs her friends to keep her going strong. She does NEED people. She even needs Beast to rescue her here and there.
But she isn’t completely utterly dependent on him. She’s not a useless, sobbing mess without his help. She may not be the toughest girl around, but she still tries to make the best of things. She accepts help when she needs it, or even just when it’s offered.
She isn’t out there to prove anything. She’s not trying to prove she can “take care of herself” or that she “doesn’t need anybody” or that “she’s as good as the guys”. She’s just an intelligent, adventurous young woman who just makes the best out of a bad situation.
I think it’s a good mix between being dependent and independent. She really does rely on her friends, and the Beast, but she isn’t useless without them.
I think it’s definitely worth talking about interesting female characters, Tom. What is it you like about the Superman cartoon’s take on Lois and Lana?
What does everybody think about Wonder Woman?
I liked the DCAU version and the DC Animated Movie version, which is slightly different.
I feel that she’s a thinly-developed Mary Sue. I couldn’t name a single flaw she has, which really limits her story potential, I think. I suspect she would play a more meaningful role if she overlapped less with Superman, who is also a huge Mary Sue. To the extent that she has any distinguishing traits, I’d say it’s that she’s a warrior and Superman isn’t, but everything about her feels like she isn’t a warrior. (She’s been an ambassador, she’s generally very gentle, she rarely makes hard decisions, she more or less refuses to kill, she’s definitely liberal, etc).
In contrast, I feel like John Stewart has a personality that makes it feel believable that he’s an inactive US Marine. (I would have said “ex-Marine” but sometimes they get surly about that sort of thing). Specifically, he’s very organized and disciplined, he’s hard on underperforming teammates, he’s willing to make hard calls for the greater good, etc.
Shit! A car just got totaled right outside of my window. 911 time!
I thought Whovian was a bloke.
I have a problem with feminism because it so often and easily becomes extreme. I believe women should be equal to men, but they should be raised up to equality. Feminism often seems to be about degrading men. I have the same issue about racism, where it is fine to be racist against white people.
Anyway…
I hate porno characters. In particular I hate Anita Blake. Mostly I hate her because, story after story, she refuses to have sex with wolves in wolf form, until she changes her mind and does it. It’s like “I will not… I will not… I will not… okay, I will.” And she gets her power through sex. So she has sex with EVERYONE she ever meets, usually before she learns their name.
I love Isabel Fisher. She’s such a bad ass, like John McClane on HRT.
I hate eye candy girls, mostly in movies. You know, Claire Danes in Terminator 3.
I love quirky kick ass freaks, like the only characters Summer Glau ever plays.
I hate damsels.
I hate flipped stereotypes (Princess Fiona from Shrek)
I hate Special K’s (characters made from cornflake boxes; like Arya or Bella).
I hate shrinking violets.
I love complexity.
I love people (male and female) who have their own agendas, and screw the hero.
I like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and even Early Days Willow.
I like take charge females, like Michelle Ryan’s character in the one-off Easter Dr Who.
Whoa! A car crash? I hope no one’s hurt!
I generally like characters like Belle over the more whiny type, but I like Misa Amane from Death Note.
She whines and cries, clings around Light’s neck like a pendant whenever she sees him… but she is faking some of her stupidity, and is actually quite clever when she wants/needs to be.
Misa won’t crack under pressure when (rightly) suspected of murder, and will not say anything that could implicate Light’s mission of purifying the world and becoming a god. She has caused Light further trouble and for L’s suspicion of him to get deeper on more than one occasion, but overall she is helpful, even if she is so obsessed with her boyfriend that she lets him manipulate her.
Her whining is obnoxious at times, but is played for comedy. “Light, can you please make Misa be quiet now?” And then there’s the part where Aizawa shoves her into her room and locks the door so they don’t have to talk to her anymore. Haha.
I also like Risa Koizumi from Love Com. She is insecure about her height (5”7’, in Japan, where the average height for a girl is 5”2’) and acts like an idiot at times, so much so that she fights with Atsushi Otani (a very short boy) They are collectively reffered to as “All Hanshin Kyojin” by their classmates, after a comedy duo.
I like her because of her attitude. She covers up her sensitivity by constantly yelling at Otani and hitting him, but over time she starts to develop feelings for him. She struggles to tell him so, but he takes it the wrong way and thinks she means she likes him as a friend, and makes it clear he wouldn’t want to be anything more. Risa gets upset over it, but eventually resumes her normal behaviour, though she thinks about him a lot more and makes plans to get him to fall for her. Risa enacts these plans, which usually go horribly wrong, and that isn’t helped by Otani being hard to read.
Risa needs her friends, Nobuko and Chiharu, for advice and motivation when she falls into sadness. After talking to them, she usually comes up with plans that work better than her independent ones, but in the end it is her being herself and Nobuko’s boyfriend talking to Otani that makes Otani realize how much he does like her. (Leading to one of the cutest scenes ever! Haha)
Basically, she is strong but not invincible, needs her friends for help, and relies mostly upon her emotions, which cause almost all of the conflict. She resolves it mostly on her own, but needs help sometimes, and refuses to give up until she is completely and utterly discouraged. Strangely, that is what it takes to get Otani to realize how hurt she is, so he finally reveals his feelings.
Eve from Black Cat is only young, but can destroy anyone in a fight. She largely depends on Train and Sven from guidance and her material needs, and is sort of like an adopted daughter to Sven and sister to Train. However, she has been shown to use knowledge obtained from her excessive reading in a fight. She has employed strategies like turning her entire body into solid steel, turning her hair into nano blades and turning her arm into a sword or hammer. She can do a lot more than just that, and transformed into a mermaid at one point so she wouldn’t drown.
Eve has needed help from them on more than one occasion, but is usually fine without it. She considers herself a rival to Train and wants to become the best fighter around. Her determination is my favourite thing about her. She wants to be the best and not have to rely on her friends so much, but knows that she needs them.
Just so people know, if you’re using examples from anime or manga, please explain them like RW did. Death Note is the only anime or manga I’ve seen, so just listing names won’t help me out.
Thanks for all this, guys.
Ooh, sorry, Scribblar. Your post got delayed because our spam filters include “Anita Blake” and “porno.” I just gave it approval, so it should appear normally.
Scarlett from the new GI Joe looks like she can be more than just a pretty face. I just hope that she isn’t one of those types who unknowingly flirts or chats with her bf Snake-Eyes about what they do when their time is over (i.e.,”we’re gonna have three beautiful kids and live on the countryside” or some other nonsense).
In regards to anime, I liked Sakura from Naruto when she wasn’t screwing around in her own head like Niki from Heroes or trying to unlock Sasuke’s Sharingan, if you know what I mean. She was a hell of a lot less annoying once she cut her hair; the girls I know with long hair just strike me the wrong way for some reason.
I really hope that she did not start dating a ninja in the hopes of retiring on the countryside.
Oh, I also like the Harada twins from DNAngel. A little background:
Daisuke Niwa is an average 14 year old with a crush on a girl, Risa Harada. He is rejected by her, because she sees him as a friend. On his fourteenth birthday, he is thinking about her when something weird happens. He transforms into a guy who looks 17-18 with purple hair. He doesn’t look like himself at all.
He runs to his mother and she explains that it is a genetic condition that affects every male in his family at their fourteenth birthday. It will only be fixed once his true love loves him back. What’s more, this condition is like another person who lives inside his head, and takes over shortly after the transformation. He is named Dark, and is a thief who steals cursed artworks to purify them. He is also a shameless flirt and whenever Daisuke is mentioned around him, he will try to embarrass him for fun.
Risa Harada learns about Dark through the news, and sees him as the perfect guy. She is bored with her normal life and so wants some adventure, which is why Dark appeals to her. She is more feminine than her sister and a bit of a crybaby, but she knows what she wants and will try incessantly to get it, not knowing that it is Daisuke. (Depending on whether you consider Dark a split personality, but I don’t. Dark remembers all being in the other guys in the Niwa family, knowledge Daisuke wouldn’t have)
In short, Risa is after adventure, and while she doesn’t want to give up her life as a rich girl, she is getting tired of it. Because All Girls Want Bad Boys, she pursues Dark as a boyfriend. She gets upset sometimes, but if she is told she can’t have something she will do anything to get it.
Riku is sporty and tries to keep Risa from doing stupid things that will get her into trouble, and is often unwillingly dragged along to the scenes of Dark’s robberies. She resents being dragged into Risa’s plans, but cooperates because she cares so much. She likes Daisuke, further complicating things. She is suspicious of him and sets up a few tests to see if he is Dark. Riku is kind-hearted and tries to help anyone she can, but sometimes it takes a lot to convince her. She can get very angry if someone lies to her.
In short, Riku is levelheaded and tomboyish, but also a little distrusting of people. She prefers to plan things herself, because she knows Risa would just cause trouble. If the situation is dangerous, she prefers to stop and think rather than jump right into it. She gets angry if she believes someone is hiding something and will try to trick them into revealing the truth.
Of the two, I prefer Riku.
“Tom. What is it you like about the Superman cartoon’s take on Lois and Lana?”
The thing I liked about Lana is that from her first appearance in the show (not counting Clark’s Kidroduction http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AMinorKidroduction in High School), she acts pretty cool. After being saved by Superman she says to him ‘nice costume. Let me guess, Martha sewed it’, saying straight away that she’d figured it out. She then spends the rest of the episode helping Superman by spying on Luthor. She was also independent, eager and likable.
As for Lois, I liked her because every time she got kidnapped, threatened etc she would try her hardest to get away. Sometimes she even succeeded, she would fight back against her captor and so her best to free herself instead of waiting for Superman. Also, she was a well-developed, three-dimensional character who would always jokingly mock Clark by calling him ‘Smallville’, but in the one where Clark ‘died’, she tells Superman (long story…) that she always kinda liked the guy. Also, in the grand finale of the show, SHE saved SUPERMAN from military custody! She snuck into the base and helped Supes to escape and get to Apokolips. Also, it’s worth noting that in the parallel universe where Lois died Superman turned into a power hungry tyrant, showing just how much of a pivotal role she plays in his life.
So yeah, Lois and Lana, two most awesome female characters.
“Speaking of Twilight, how is it possible for a female writer to make such a horrible female character?”
Three words, (and no desire to offend) : Mormon female writer.
And I definitely agree with what Trollitrade said, “I think there’s a balance to be found between “dependent” and “independent” heroines.” Of course, I dislike passive damsels in distress, but another thing that bothers me is female characters who are so overblown it’s just ridiculous, like the tough warrior chick or the renegade. You know? Characters who are so the opposite of damsels in distress that it’s just as offensive.
Yes, I love Belle. Even Jasmine from Aladdin (“I am not a prize to be won!”) was strong in a way. A female character I loved, for her femininity and sweetness but also her social awkwardness, was the title character of the French movie Amelie. If you’ve never seen it, I recommend checking it out.
Oh, another note about Risa Harada: while she is an awesome character, I want to slap her in the face sometimes. When she runs in without thinking, she usually gets herself in trouble and that means Dark has to steal/evade police/fight Krad and rescue her on top of it all. If she’s going to run into dangerous situations without thinking, she should at least learn karate or judo or something.
Granted, on a couple of occasions she ran in to help Dark when he was injured, like in the anime when he got a sword through the shoulder. Even then she ran up to him screaming, ignored Dark when he told her to leave, and then Krad promptly picked her up with mind power (think the Force) and began to torture her. Riku went to save her because Dark was in a heap of pain, and then Krad picked on her instead.
Just think, Risa! Sneak up behind Krad with a block of wood or let his groin meet Ms. Foot! Even better, let his groin meet Mr. Block of Wood. When facing an enemy who could rip you apart with his strength or his mind, subtlety is how you avoid ending up in the morgue! Even worse, it could be your sister or friend/boyfriend who ends up dead! Jeez, she is awesome but stupid at the same time.
“She is awesome but stupid at the same time.” A kindred soul!
“I thought Whovian was a bloke”. Gee, thanks a lot, Scribblar! Haha. Nah, I’m kidding. Like I said, I act more like a guy than a girl. To quote Debra from Dexter:
“Ugh, me in a dress. I feel like a transvestite.”
“I hate shrinking violets.”
I love them!
I guess I love to see shrinking violets get over their shyness and become more confident, because it reminds me of myself. It doesn’t matter whether they’re a guy or girl, or whatever causes them to become more confident, even if it’s Break the Cutie (which is sort of what happened to me, with constant bullying in primary school). I just love seeing that character development. It’s the same deal with jerk characters; I like to see how they change for the better, or the worse.
It’s sort of lame when a female character acts like such a tough guy (or girl in this case) to normal people but when coming up against forces she’s never met, she gets all scared little girl. And when dealing with guards, she’ll do the same tough routine like she owns the place. Also a pet peeve: little girls that look sweet then immediately start busting heads. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a guy who likes the weak girls, I just don’t want the “Am I the only one who sees she’s evil?!” line every other chapter/issue/episode (Fairly Oddparents, I’m looking at you!)
Becca, another thing I like about Jasmine is that she contributes to the team in clever and brave ways. For example, she tricks Jafar into thinking that she has fallen in love with him. “Your beard… is so… twisted.”
There are tons of female characters that saved the hero with a crucial distraction, but usually it’s less creative. For example, the love-interest/hostage might wrestle the villain for the gun at a critical moment, giving the cop the perfect opportunity to shot the bad guy. That’s not quite as impressive as what Jasmine did, which required guile and the ability to seize an opportunity.
Did I miss the rant on Bella Swan? If not, I’ll begin it.
Self Insert – To quote somewhere else I can’t remember – “when asked to describe Bella, Meyer pretty much described herself”
Mary Sue – Good lord, she embodies this -
- Flock of boys who love her, although she “isn’t” beautiful
- Personality = nothing
- Is easily pushed around by Edward (Prom anyone?) and doesn’t care
- Two words: stalker boyfriend (Don’t. Get. Me. Started.)
- Wings
Ahhh, Bella I can work with. She’s one of maybe five total females I’ve recognized that have been mentioned in this thread, one of which being Olive Oyl from Popeye (which is a cartoon for little kids, so I really doubt I can critique her character at all).
In the movie, Bella had barely any facial expressions. Blank face after blank face. The only two others she had were an occasional smile and a grimace of pain. Kristen Stewart is a good actress, but her role as Bella limited her potential.
Hey, I’m not beautiful! Where the hell is my flock of boys?! Haha. The only real justification I can think of is that the students were fascinated by the “big city girl”. There is a similar situation at my school every year, when we get Japanese and European exchange students, everyone follows them around and asks them to say stuff in whatever language they speak. But that doesn’t explain why the small town teens are so fixated on Bella. Sure, they may have wanted a new friend, but the guys practically stalk her and Edward does stalk her .
I was just looking through stalker tropes on TVTropes, and the picture on this page made me laugh really hard.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.StalkingIsLove
What’s this? We’re bashing Twilight? Then check out the page quote from this Tropes article, added by yours truly.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourVampiresSuck
On topic: Self-inserts are usually considered a bad thing, right? Well there’s one example of a really good self-insert female character. It’s very subtle, because she’s not the title character of the book, but the female author has said that she is heavily based on herself. I am of course talking about Hermione from Harry Potter. She is exactly the way Rowling was in high school (according to Rowling). The thing is though, her uptight attitude and smarty-pantsness are a brilliant foil to Ron’s comic relief role, and both Harry and Ron’s occasional stupidity. So yeah, Hermione, a self-insert that’s actually a likable character.
There’s a difference between Hermione and Bella though. Bella was specifically designed to allow the reader to insert themselves into her role, and has absolutely no characteristics. An ordinary character would have flaws and interests like Hermione. Bella has none. There’s a You Are Bella series on youtube that’s really enlightening about this aspect. Do you like knitting? So does Bella! Do you like ballet? What a coincidence, so does Bella! Do you want to be a writer? So does Bella!
Hermione on the other hand, has actual goals, and she’s not meant to allow readers to slip into her role. Rowling has stated that Hermione in the first book was a caricature of herself, but this aspect was toned down, as she began to develop in different ways.
In my opinion, I hate girl characters who always go for the hunky love interest. Instead of noticing the person who actually appreciates them, they go after the ripped muscular guy with good hair, lol.
Also, if I read, hear, or see another female character that is described as “considerate and kind” I’m going to rip the pages out of every novel I see. While I’m not a sexist or anything, it would be nice to see a callous or serious female character who has something else to do besides bake cookies and bind the heroes wounds.
Fuwa… this is really going to help me write Evangeline for my book!
Hope the guide comes out soon
Some women are considerate and kind though, Asaya. As long as kindness isn’t their only trait, I think they’re fine.
For example, my ‘kind and considerate’ chick is the leader of one side of the team’s first big internal argument. It’s her .vs. the team’s… tactician, I guess you could call her? She’s standing up for something she thinks is right (as opposed to logical), which is totally in-character for her.
I’ve been trying to think of an example in TV or literature, since I know there are some, but I can’t think of any at the moment. B. Mac, any come to mind?
“While I’m not a sexist or anything, it would be nice to see a callous or serious female character who has something else to do besides bake cookies and bind the heroes wounds.”
Considerate and kind doesn’t mean “bakes cookies and binds the hero’s wounds”. Sure it’s a bland trait, but it’s just as bland on male characters as it is on girls.
What annoys me are girls who have nothing better to do than mock and bully the hero…except for then they’re being in “twoo wub” with him. Gag.
*Bland as their only trait, I mean.
I have at least one character who could be called kind and considerate.
“something she thinks is right (as opposed to logical)…” Like Kirk vs. Spock in Star Trek or maybe Lucius Fox vs. Batman in TDK. Superman and Wonder-Woman and Green Arrow often play the compassionate foil to Batman, Martian Manhunter and Green Lantern.
To me there are three sterotypes that can kill a female character.
1) The dumb blonde, where the character only cares about fashion and is whiny little bitch that relies on others to protect her
2) The damsel-in-distress, who is completely helpless and just sits around waiting to be rescued
3) The bimbo, pretty self-explanatory
Some good character models are Tracy Strauss from Heroes, very bad-ass and awesome, Fiona from Shrek, and finally Eowyn from LOTR, love the “No man can kill me!” “I ain’t a man, asshole”. [Youtube links below.]
NOTE: These can also apply to male characters but appear less frequently (Ron from Kim Possible, etc.)
Tracy- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZQ8qll75nA&feature=related
Fiona- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQxBUOtBiY8&feature=related (sorry best i could find)
Eowyn- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSNPeJAgBzo&feature=related
“The dumb blonde, where the character only cares about fashion…” I’ve been thinking about this and I agree that characters that are supposed to be fashion-conscious are usually awful. More often than not, it seems like a character that an author says a character is fashion-conscious to suggest that she has no practical skills.
Also, it’s virtually impossible for most stories to use fashion-consciousness in a way that it is actually impressive. “I just found a purse that matches my shoes perfectly!”
“Great, honey. Now let me fight the aliens some more.”
I suspect that fashion-consciousness would be somewhat less useless if the character were familiar with designing fashion rather than using it. Then it could be used to show that the character is resourceful, a problem-solver, creative, maybe cunning, etc. Also, it’d probably be easier to work this into a plot. IE: The character is a small-time clothes designer whose life dream is to win some clothing competition. But everything goes wrong and she has to overcome the superior money and equipment of her competition. … Seriously, TV shows have been made out of less.
Wow, looks like I joined this party way late. I guess the only thing I can say is “I agree.” I hope that isn’t so broad that I get into trouble. The main thing that annoys me about female characters is the drama that comes with the idea of sexuality. If I say I like girls that dress sexy, I get my head ripped off and hear a speech about how girls don’t need to be sexy. I almost like girls are supposed to be these skinless creatures that are beautiful, but not sexy (which I don’t get). I understand the lines between sexy and slutty. I go by the rules of fashion. There are some things that I think are way sexy that don’t even touch slutty. I guess it’s a matter of taste. I can only promise that I’ll make outfits as fashion forward as possible and girls as competent as possible. I apologize in advance for midriff and legs.
Watch out, don’t make girls too competent. People seem to hate that, too. ;D
Girls are such weird, beautiful creatures.
But not too beautiful! You wouldn’t want to make them just eye-candy! Okay, I’ll stop now.
I think that there’s a difference between “pretty” and “sexy”. “Sexy” implies…well, sex appeal.
Yeah, that’s what we’ve generally agreed. Pretty and beautiful are in one category, sexy is in another.
Yeah, sexy borders more on a female who basically makes all the guys in the room wanna knock her out and drag her to a closet for a few hours, where pretty is more like that genuine feeling that you get when she smiles at you or talks to you.
“Girls are such weird, beautiful creatures”.
And guys are such weird, unintelligent slobs. Haha. Kidding.
Hello everyone, I know I’m a little late to be in here but as a female I’m going to bash and defend some traits/roles of female characters in multimedia:
1: Dummy Head Character/Dumb Blonde (Thank you, Jackie, for bringing it up. Dummies are usually love interests and just have a generic personality. However I have a character who isn’t the brightest bulb in the tanning bed and is chasing after a guy who’s her best friend but is oblivious (which makes her seem slightly dimmer) but I made sure her character was developed enough to prevent any slashes.
2: DID (Damsel In Distress): Good God, are we in the middle ages or something? This is the most cliche, overused, and really roll your eyes worthy way of using a female character. I don’t use this method because i have read the books on king Arthur and they basically just hang around waiting for a “noble knight” to either ignore them, slay them, rape them (which happens surprisingly often in those books *shudders*), or actually help them. Writers, please don’t do it.
3: The Its: by its I do not mean bisexuals, tomboys, or anything related to that. I’m talking about trying too hard to make guys like your character if it’s in first person for example and making the gal overpowered, have some unfitting qualities, ect. But don’t get me wrong, if you can develop a character that isn’t cringe-worthy, you deserve a high-five.
4: Mary Sues/Universal Roles: This goes for guys and gals! Ok, Twilight (I did like the series even though it was literary crack) is the perfect example of this. What is Bella’s personality like? Good golly, I have no clue! See what the author did? She made the character (keep in mind for those who haven’t read it this is all first person) someone where the reader could step into her shoes. Never in the history of forever do this if you want your manuscript to be your own. I maybe should write an article on here on my problems with Twilight (again even though I did like it) because when you think about it, did this character have any goals before she met Edward? No. Why did every person in her new school want to be her friend? Nobody knows. So again I say, don’t do it, guys.
That concludes my little insert.
Hermione is a fairly obvious insert character, and a bit of a Mary-Sue. With the exception of being a smart arse (which she is cured of in the first book) she is constantly told how intelligent she is… “brightest witch of your age.” When she does herself up (for the dance with Viktor) she turns the head of every guy and girl in the school. She pulls Viktor Klum, international sporting superhero (like Beckham falling for a sixteen year old). She is so smart she gets to time travel to study extra classes. She takes the fall for the troll in the toilet. She is gutsy, loyal, loving and pulls Ron Weasley (who, if we’re honest, is a better catch than HP – he has severe anger issues).
I didn’t like Fiona in Shrek – she was 1D. She waited in the tower (damsel in distress) but kicked the ass of Robin Hood (complete opposite of Damsel). I just felt there was nothing sincere or honest about her.
Still, her personality wasn’t as flat as Bella.
Well scibblar, Stephanie Meyer even said it herself that she didn’t give Bella much of a personality so the reader could get into her mindset. This is Mary Sue to the max! Did Bella or any characters grow or develop over the course of the four books? No. Did any of the major characters die? (sorry if I’m spoiling) No! When Meyer was describing Bella on her website, she was basically describing herself. Mary Sue extreme.
Oh, yeah, I’m not arguing there. I haven’t read the books and I won’t, mainly because I have no desire to be a 17 year old girl.
All I’m saying is that Hermione is also a Mary Sue.
“And guys are such weird, unintelligent slobs. Haha. Kidding.”
I stand to doubt that you’re kidding, but okay. Just kidding.
Just so you know, I do plan on having a female character who at first glance would be taken for a sexually promiscuous girl. All I plan to show is thigh, but I’m pretty sure that takes her over the edge. I’ll probably give some sort of explanation. I planned for Adrian to be on a team with two girls. The antithesis of most trios. I intended for one of the girls to be a cleaner girl who looks down on her.
“I have no desire to be a 17 year old girl”.
OMFG I CAN’T BELIVE U JEST SED TAHT!!!!111one1eleven
Haha. Yeah, but not all seventeen year old girls like Twilight. I’m not seventeen yet, but I don’t like Twilight at all. It kind of reminds me of my early stories from when I was ten. (facepalms)
I never killed a single character, the girl in a wheelchair learned how to walk, the boy in a coma woke up, when they got lost they always got found, they were smart, attractive, charming, funny and kind.
When their house was burned down they shrugged and rebuilt it. The boys were strong, even the six year old, and the girls were skilled in swift combat. Everyone agreed with them all the time. They were friends to all living things.
I added extra characters just because I felt like it, until the story was bursting at the seams with over one hundred of them, some of which appeared every fifty (short) chapters. The central family alone consisted of the couple, their eight children, the mother’s parents, brother and sister. Later on each child got married and had their own kids. Imagine the family tree!
Quite frankly, I sucked. Badly. Words cannot describe the extent of my fail. I see that kind of amateurism in Twilight, and it is probably why I dislike it so much. I remember writing a bash fic about my own characters, where I had them ripped apart by dingoes, burned alive, murdered, fed to rats etc until they were all dead. I felt so much better after writing it, because it killed my fail and I actually saw that the massacre fic was better than my original story.
Yes, I know I’m weird for killing every character in a painful way. At least it made me feel better about my writing. My favourite bit was definitely this one:
“Sarah tried to back away from the dingo, unable to focus on anything but its bared teeth. She screamed as it leapt on her, and the last thing she ever saw was its fiery eyes”.
Take THAT!
That’s hilarious.
I wasn’t sure what all the 1′s meant, but it’s obvious B.Mac is absent.
Lol.
I’m a 26 year old guy, why the heck would I want to be a 17 year old girl? Oh, make-up, oh bfs, oh bffs, oh golly I suck.
We should feed Bella to Dingoes, then the people who read it would understand that this was the fate waiting for them.
Hey now, Scribblar. I’m a seventeen year old girl and almost take offense to that last bit. =|
That wasn’t directed at 17 year old girls, it was for die hard fans of Twilight of any age.
I’ve nothing against 17 year old girls per se.
I’m digging a hole here, aren’t I?
You know what, I really like the women in the Dresden Files. Karen Murphy and Luccio are the best of a really good bunch. I also like that Dresden isn’t getting it on in every other book.
Don’t worry about it, it’s all good.
As an almost-seventeen-year-old girl, I also find that nearly insulting.
…I would never use the word golly!
“Oh, make-up, oh bfs, oh bffs, oh golly I suck.”
“bfs”…ugh! XD I’ve never dated; I’d hate to be seen sitting in the corner wangsting because a guy I didn’t intend to stay with broke up with me. Sometimes I don’t think teenagers even know what relationships ARE, and I am one.
And THAT’S what I hate in female characters! Being dominated by relationships that are plainly hormonal joyrides, and presenting it as being sweet and sympathetic. Even though it’s obvious to the reader that she’d be better off on her own, the writer looks at it and goes, “twoo wub!”
Like Betty Cooper. Oh, ugh, Betty Cooper.
Oh, jeez. I really hate it when teen characters angst over breakups. Sure, they can be sometimes difficult or painful, especially if the circumstances were messy, like finding out that your boyfriend/girlfriend was cheating, but I’ve always been taught to get over it. It’s usually not worth the energy it takes to cry over it. I’ve never dated either, but if I got dumped I’d just ignore him.
I read somewhere that in the second Twilight book, there are ten blank pages after Edward dumps Bella to symbolise her inner emptiness. If I wrote it and gave Bella a personality, there would be two blank pages and then in big, bold letters: “SCREW YOU, EDWARD!”
Come on! No one would leap off a cliff because their sparkly vampire bishie dumped them. Even if they did, said sparklepire would have a hard time saving them, even with Sue-per speed and Sue-per strength. Haha.
Haha…I’d pay you to write that.
- Wings
I’m thinking of borrowing the book from my school library and rewriting it as an exercise. I could post it on fanfiction.net and give the link to Twilightsucks.com so they can read it and decide which version is better. Haha.
One of these years I’m rewriting Blood and Chocolate. The one about werewolves. It’s worse even than Twilight.
“She… pulls Ron Weasley (who, if we’re honest, is a better catch than HP – he has severe anger issues)”.
“I’m feeling cranky and pubescent today, and I know know why! Grrrr! I think I’m going to take it out on people I like!” Haha, I love the Potter Puppet Pals.
I haven’t read all the books, but I think Hermione has been pulled off quite well in the movies. I didn’t notice much Sueness, really. I was quite distracted by the awesome when she whacked Draco in the face in the third movie. I would’ve done the same. He’s such a jerk.
Lolwut? Blood and Chocolate? That’s a weird title. Sputum and Marshmallows! Haha.
I just looked at the rating the movie got on Rotten Tomatoes. 11 out of 100. Looks like it needs to be rewritten very badly.
Check it out of the library. The book is even worse. Hahah… It’s almost worth reading just so you feel that much better about your own writing.
In Darren Shan, I liked the character Debbie Hemlock. She (the older one) was developed well, and despite being a human, was tough enough to stand up to superhuman threats. She was also developed independently of the main character.
The first time she was captured, she elbowed the face of a vampire (vampaneze) and got away at a crucial point in battle. (only to be captured again by a different vampaneze in the midst of battle… but, oh well)
I’m not so good at describing things here, but to those who’ve read the series, I hope you’ll agree.
Yeah, I loved Debbie. It made me so mad that they gave her such a generic name, though. ‘Debbie’ ensures 99% of the time that the character isn’t important.
“I read somewhere that in the second Twilight book, there are ten blank pages after Edward dumps Bella to symbolise her inner emptiness.” I don’t know if that was edited out of the version I read (quite possible, because it wasn’t hard copy) but that wasn’t there. Instead, after the end of the chapter it says, in big, pretentious letters ‘don’t panic’.
LOL, I wish. It really said:
OCTOBER
NOVEMBER
DECEMBER
JANUARY
Just like that. What made it even more pretentious is that that appeared IN THE CONTENTS PAGE, despite there being nothing but those words there. I don’t know what she was playing at but it really annoyed me.
Incidentally, I’m currently reading the second book, and it’s currently quite good. Why? Edward hasn’t appeared for about 60 pages and Bella’s being independent. If only he wasn’t coming back later on…
Ha, bash Twilight.
But I’m wondering why, after all Twilight is not the worst book in the world.
That award goes to Eragon, methinks.
Ehh, it’s a discussion thread about female characters. I think Twilight has come up a bit more than Eragon because Eragon’s female characters, although fairly awful, play a blessedly small role.
That’s true. I hadn’t thought of that. As bland as they are, they’re not often on the page.
I agree with the posts above saying that bimbos or stereotypical “girly-girls” are generally unlikeable, I have managed to find one that was done really well.
Did anyone watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Angel? Cordelia started out as sort of a filler personality for the Scoobies in Buffy and really grew into a woman near the end of the third season and then continued in Angel. Of course, it may be hard to translate this into a novel or a comic where someone may come off immediately as unlikeable, but eventually when she was cheated on by the “average guy” it was hard not to feel sorry for her and see her grow up beyond her fashion-and-looks-only days.
If anyone was looking for good female characters to try and analyze, I would try Joss Whedon’s creations, because of both physically and emotionally strong and weak characters, with enough flaws to cancel out the Mary-Sue sort of women in Whedon’s life.
I can most definitely use Whedon’s as good examples, that’s one canon I’m very familiar with.
But for the record, Cordy was never a ‘bimbo’ or a ‘girly-girl’. That was more her sidekick, Harmony. Cordelia was a different stereotype altogether: Queen Bee. Or ‘Queen B’, the ‘B’ being short for something a bit less nice. Those type girls are nearly always the antagonist, so I loved that Whedon fleshed her out and made her a part of things.
tea from Yu-gi-oh was incredibly annoyinh as was serenity
From what I’ve heard about Whedon, he has a habit of killing off a lot of girl characters. I don’t know what that says about him…
In Angel and Buffy, he killed just as many men as women.
Ah, I understand now.
I really enjoyed the females in Sarah Connor. Except for Weaver, they all had fairly consistent personalities and had a lot of depth. Wish it wasn’t cancelled.
I liked the female characters in Napoleon Dynamite, is that a bad comparison?
What did you like about them? I haven’t seen Napoleon Dynamite.
Well, they did develop over time even though the main characters were all guys. Deb (Napoleon Dymnamite’s friend/partial love interest) had a sort of distinctive personality that if she were writing a letter and didn’t sign, you would still know she wrote it, you know? That’s what I look for: female characters that are unique. B. Mac, I would highly suggest seeing Napoleon Dynamite. It’s an awesome comedy.
I think Mary jane because she dosn’t do anything but make a relationship harder for spiderman to purse. Overall I think she just a girl who cant make up her mind.
Betty Ross from the incredibel Hulk the anamited series
for ones she two faced manipulateing the Hulk who clearly loves her to do whatever she askes also pretending to be his friend while still trying to find a cure
she says cure i say murder anyone else aggrie?
She knows Bruce Banner (whos she loves) is still in there. And Bruce WANTS to get rid of the Hulk so she would try to kill bruce in order to get rid of the hulk. Besides the Hulk could crush her if he thought she wanted to hurt him. Check out “Married” From the original hulk (old school I know). P.s Harley Quinn can take down MJ and Betty compined!
Some of these female relationship these days are really starting to scare me for real. I mean, Twilight is an obvious example that Bella “Blank Slate” Swan found love at first sight in the middle of now where. Mary Jane “What-son?” is just a pretty face, and I can go on for decades. Good luck to those awesome writers out there, anywhere, because in these times, apparently people settle for relationships like this. I can’t say I’m not doing the same in my book though, but I kind of take it to a comedic perspective.
Hm, speaking from a female viewpoint, I generally dislike the faux-feminist female characters that insist ‘real women don’t wear dresses’. Wearing dresses, doing menial household chores, or having an interest in marriage, does not make a female character weak nor useless. Drawing observation from a Taylor Swift song(I don’t listent o her often, but this struck me as strange), I never understood how anyone could possibly conclude that a girl wearing high heels and short shorts must be intellectually inferior to a girl wearing sneakers and tees. Petty excuses to lead to the conclusion feminine=weak.
Neither of the two extremes of faux-feminism to the ultra-helpless damsel in distress is appealing to any readers of both genders, but it’s true that some people are inclined to believe that these extremes may very well define ‘a real woman’.
It’s nice to know I’m not the only one who thought that Taylor Swift song was strange. I believe it says, “she wears high heels, I wear sneakers; she’s cheer captain and I’m on the bleachers”. I think it was meant to make the other girl sound more stereotypically-high-school-glamorous than Ms. Swift, but I don’t know. It doesn’t sound that way.
You know, I’m sick of people going out of their way to make female characters “strong”. It’s stupid. Women are equal to men, not superior. If you make a wimpy male character, people just go, “lol hes dumb”. If you make a wimpy female character, you are flamed to a crisp. One time I was posing as a boy on the ‘Net, just to see if people would tell me my character was sexist. They did. XD
(Back to that song… “She wears short skirts, I wear T-shirts…” So does she wear short skirts as opposed to shirts? Weird.)
Wimpy male characters also annoy me. Especially if they make vows to become stronger, and conveniently proceed to hide behind stronger characters for the next 30 chapters with no sign of improvement at all. To me, that is frustrating.
I don’t mind female characters that choose to cheer at the sidelines, but if they are meant to be an action character (warrior, ninja, etc.) and are forced into the same position…that’s one of the worst things to do to a female character. Considering they are designated to be capable of defending themselves, they shouldn’t be agreeing into becoming a burden to the action character(s). Pre-timeskip Sakura Haruno comes to mind…
I’ve never listened to the song in question, but my best guess is that the singer is just trying to show that she’s a better fit for the guy than the cheerleader is. Ahem, the name of the song is “You Belong With Me.” I don’t think she’s drawing conclusions about the quality of stereotypically feminine women that (like cheerleaders that wear short skirts)–just that they wouldn’t make a good fit for this guy.
Then again, that’s just my take…
I hate it when a badass female character is essentially a man with breasts and a uterus. Kara Thrace is a good example. I like that character but she annoys me to no end for that reason. That character would make more sense to me as a gay man than as a biological woman. Molly Millions is a great example of how to do it right.
I have two huge issues with the Man with a Uterus.
My first peeve with that character is when the author assumes everybody will be okay to just pretend she has the physical strength of a man. She fights like a man. She can knock somebody out with one punch. That is not impressive, it’s just ridiculous and unbelievable. It’s more impressive if she looked honestly at her strengths and weaknesses and tailored her fighting style to minimize one and capitalize on the other. A badass woman will fight more like Bruce Lee than Hulk Hogan. She’s going to trade on speed and coordination, not brute strength.
Second, badass woman is not going to pretend that she doesn’t have feelings. Molly Millions is such a great example for this. She periodically gives Henry Case a quick, efficient status report on how she feels about him and their relationship. That rang so true to me. We are not like men. We talk about our feelings because we have to. If we don’t take it out and put it on the table, it will just sit in our heads getting more distracting by the second. Think of it as like sexual release for a man. If you don’t do something about it, it gets more difficult to get anything else done. You have to clear out the tubes once in a while, just for efficacy’s sake. It’s the same for us, only it’s feelings instead of semen.
On a completely awkward tangent, I’d like to refer you to the Seinfeld episode “The Abstinence.” It’s pretty funny.
On a less awkward tangent, I think that Bones places its female lead in an unusual role: the cold-but-likable Spock archetype. Surprisingly, she’s an anthropologist, so she really gets cultures and relationships, but in a mechanical way.
I’m going to pretend that Gwen was talking about Godzilla’s recurring urinary tract infections since the rise in sea-borne piracy and just forgot to add an “A” to her last word.
It’s not that much better, but it is a little bit better in my opinion, but it also raises several questions, and I don’t like those questions.
Isn’t it strange that even feminists don’t believe that feminity is masculinity’s equal? A woman, fictional or real, can wear dresses and cook for her husband, but she considered ‘weak’ and not what a ‘real woman’ could do. That sort of mentality is utterly disgusting, but that is what some feminists believe, a woman is not strong unless if she abandons feminity.
Keira Knightley would be an example: how is a possibly underweight woman able to fend off heavyweight men by brute strength alone?
kara “starbuck” thrace (if you were talking battlestar galactica) was a man in the original series, but having lee sleep with a man for a large part of the series would have been akward
“You belong with me” by taylor swift wasnt meant to imply that she was superior to the other girl because she was less femine, she was implying that she was not as cool, but she knew the guy better so they were a better match
We’re all bashing Bella here, for good reason. But let me introduce you, my friends, to *MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR BREAKING DAWN ALERT* Bella’s baby, Renesmee.
Anyway, Renesmee ages super fast, and she has all of Edward’s BEAUTY AND SPARKLYPANTS PERFECTNESS. Oh, and Jacob imprints on her, which basically means that he’s destined to mate with her. The problem with the aging is that Bella is not really a mother – all Renesmee is is a toy for Bella. Teaching her to read? She’s reading in a week. Changing nappies? She’s potty trained. Baby temper tantrums? Renesmee’s smarter than any adult. Having to deal with boys? Imprinting. Bella’s never going to have to go through the hardships of being a mother and bond with her baby by doing so – Renesmee can just go off with Jacob and be HAPPY AND SPARKLY AND PERFECT, while she and Edward can also be HAPPY AND SPARKLY AND PERFECT. In effect, all of this is actually making Bella worse.
Oh, and she has a stupid name.
(Though, I do rather like that her nickname is “Nessie.” The author was realistic in that much – give a baby a goofy name, get a goofy nickname
)
Renesmee’s name makes me want to tear my own head off.
Dear God, Renesmee. Sue-spawn through and through.
“She’s gonna be such a ridiculously spoiled brat all her ridiculously long and sparkly life.”
Actually, outside of Meyer’s perfect Twilight world, being Renesmee would pretty much suck. See the fanfiction “The Paper Doll Kindergarten” for a rather accurate, if extremely dark, interpretation.
- Wings