Comments on: Plot elements that should not be added lightly

By: WritingNinja

WritingNinja — Sat, 01 Oct 2011 02:30:28 +0000

I agree with the article. Esp. #3. I remember reading a really good series of Star Trek books where the characterizations were amazing. It was written by many different writers. I stopped reading it because out of the blue, one character was suddenly gay. It was a “what the heck?” moment. Not only that, it was poorly written because it starts off with meeting his attractive coworker that he never met before, but who just happened to be gay. I consider that gay fiction. And if books include that in it, I will put it down, no matter how good the writing is. I see that when any kind of entertainment throws a gay character in, it’s for controversy and trying to be “cool” with homosexuals. I think it’s better that if you are going to write a character who is gay, then make it a gay fiction.

And I know a lot of authors want to break the bonds of society. But Being gay is a sexual preference and there are plenty of books out there with characters where you don’t go into their personal life like that. (Picture of Dorian Grey is supposedly gay but it is never revealed in the book. Well written.) I know, for me, I avoid reading fictional books with rape, sexual abuse, sex scenes, ….ect. in it. That’s just my standards. Of course on the flip side, I also wouldn’t read a book that highly opposed these issues to the point of attacking people and sending them to Hell.

I guess my main point is, it’s a very slippery path when people write about things listed in the article. Even if authors go ahead and write things like that. They shouldn’t be upset when I don’t finish reading the book because I don’t want to read stuff like that.

By: Aj of Earth

Aj of Earth — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 19:14:00 +0000

I hear you. And actually no, I can’t think of any mainstream superhero novels or comics that kicked off with with solidly-developed gay characters. Certainly there’s all the salt & peppering being done now with Marvel and DC (and others), etc., but of course they’ve been around for some time now, like you illustrated with Amazing Adventures.

And that’s the point, I think. Finding creative ways to include this element, or any other unconventional yet still relatable aspect of the human condition, into mainstream superhuman narrative, where before it hadn’t existed much if at all.

It’s tricky, I suppose, especially given your insights as to how publishers are generally inclined to think about it.

I’m still in the camp of It Can Be Done, though.

By: B. Mac

B. Mac — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 17:47:24 +0000

“I think the inclusion of this sort of diversity in one’s creative fiction wouldn’t automatically relegate it out of the mainstream and into sub-genre – but only if the writer is capable of effective, authentic characterization and doesn’t lose the real thread of the actual plot. I imagine this applies just as relevantly to any other minority group or non-Caucasian demographic…” I agree with you on other minority groups, but I’m a bit skeptical the U.S. market is there with gay characters. Can you think of any superhero novels or comic books with gay characters that were mainstream (i.e. not listed as gay fiction) successes in the U.S.? The only one I can think of is the Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay*, but Michael Chabon was a well-known author when that came out. Unless you’ve won an O. Henry Award or are a literary celebrity or something, I’m not sure how much that would help you.

(*Assuming Amazing Adventures actually is a superhero story. It’s much more about comic book creators than superhero adventures. If Amazing Adventures doesn’t count, the closest example I can think of is Northstar/Alpha Flight, if you are really flexible about what constitutes a success).

By: Aj of Earth

Aj of Earth — Thu, 04 Aug 2011 17:22:14 +0000

Hmm…

So, concerning #3: Gay Characters – I think the inclusion of this sort of diversity in one’s creative fiction wouldn’t automatically relegate it out of the mainstream and into sub-genre – but only if the writer is capable of effective, authentic characterization and doesn’t lose the real thread of the actual plot.

I imagine this applies just as relevantly to any other minority group or non-Caucasian demographic, not just gay folk, especially when dealing with superhero fiction. The superhero genre is filled with characters who come from all walks of life, different areas of the world, different cultures, different backgrounds; there are white people, black people, Asian people, German and Hispanic and Native American and Indonesian and everything in-between people, there are alien hybrids, human mutants, sorcerers, gene-freaks, pan-dimensional time travelers, cyborgs, you name it it’s been represented etc etc etc. until the cows come home…

I don’t think it’s a stretch of the imagination, nor would it have to mean an automatic trip to the alternative lifestyle/special interest shelf, to include a character who, among everything else going on in whatever helter-skelter world being written, also happens to be gay. I think the secret is to stay original, not to shackle them in stereotype, and also to stay focused on what story is being told at large. If writing superhero fiction then the main thrust of this character’s story, their overall hero’s journey (gay or straight or alien or alligator), should be superhero related. Which isn’t to say that the character won’t effect or be effected by his/her environment because of their personal circumstances, but the story itself doesn’t have to be about being gay just because the character is. Further, neither does the gay character necessarily need to be the main character.

There are endless ways to include diversity of all kinds (which is sort of the allegory of the superhero genre) without estranging the reader if handled intelligently and respectfully, all while remaining true the overall story that you’re actually trying to tell.

but that’s just IMO…

thoughts?

By: invader-myna

invader-myna — Fri, 29 Jul 2011 14:07:45 +0000

“They never did anything to anyone…” Maybe that’s why the Canadians are rarely written about? After all, the Germans certainly get more than their fair share in lit as mad scientists, Nazis or evil dictators, let alone the Russians…

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Fri, 29 Jul 2011 13:33:27 +0000

Now ya mention it… (frantically scans brain for any mention of Canadians.)
Hmm. No. Apparently British authors think Canada doesn’t exist. Although, to be perfectly honest, ninety to ninety five percent of what’s on television is American, and a sizeable portion of the books in any of my favourite bookstores are American too. Maybe we just don’t like them? Poor Canadians. They never did anything to anyone. Apart from playing hockey at them I suppose.
You could probably write a novel about drunken men stabbing each other with tridents and singing sea shanties. Actually, I have a feeling that might be the entire plot of the next Pirates of the Caribbean movie. (Ooh, *burn*.)

By: B. Mac

B. Mac — Thu, 28 Jul 2011 23:05:38 +0000

“…this was more a general sense of curiosity than specific to my WIP.” No worries. There’ll always be time later to write about guys drunkenly stabbing each other with tridents while singing sea chanties.

By: Wings

Wings — Thu, 28 Jul 2011 18:05:23 +0000

And now I want to write about guys stabbing each other with tridents while singing sea chanties. Thanks a lot, guys.

On the topic of writing trends in different countries, almost all of the steampunk/sci-fi I’ve read lately has come from Irish authors. Odd.

- Wings

By: B. Mac

B. Mac — Thu, 28 Jul 2011 17:29:59 +0000

Anonymous, are there any Canadians in British fiction? Besides Wolverine, I can’t remember the last time I saw a Canadian in a story released in the U.S., let alone launched in the U.S.

Perhaps Canadians are a plot element that should not be added lightly.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Thu, 28 Jul 2011 16:56:05 +0000

Much thanks! ^_^ I must admit I do see more gay characters in British fiction (and not many characters stabbing each other with tridents in either market). I’m British, writing a YA fantasy novel, but this was more a general sense of curiosity than specific to my WIP.

By: B. Mac

B. Mac — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 14:45:43 +0000

I think most writing advice (and most of my writing advice) applies regardless of country. For example, whether you’re looking to get published in the U.S. or Tuvalu, you’ll probably go farther with more interesting characters, sharper dialogue, a more coherent plot, etc.

However, in a few cases, my U.S. experience might be less applicable to the publishing industry in your country. There are a few significant cultural and audience differences between publishing in the U.S. and other markets. Characters may become more or less relatable in certain markets. I think the U.S. market is generally less receptive to gay characters than, say, the British one. The Atlantean market is probably the only one receptive to stories about guys stabbing each other with tridents while singing sea chanties. I’m not very familiar with the market for young adult books, but I get the impression that British YA books tend to be a bit darker than American ones.

If you ever feel like a piece of writing advice does not apply to your home market for whatever reason, feel free to disregard it. If you’re not sure, I’d recommend checking out what publishing blogs in your country/region are saying about the issue in question.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:49:11 +0000

It’s possible you’ve already answered this, and if so, I apologize, but I’m curious: B.Mac, is your advice directed specifically at American writers, or are these tips advisable for British/French/Atlantean/whatever writers as well? I’m wondering how different the markets are.

By: B. Mac

B. Mac — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 04:05:34 +0000

What’s your target audience like, Mabs? I feel like there’s something of a contrast between the antagonists (supernatural school bullies) and the plot material (killing the girlfriend and ripping the planet apart). School bullies are a staple of young adult literature but I don’t know how well the rest of it will play with young adults. I’m not very well-versed in the market for YA, though, so please take that with a big grain of salt.

One possible solution that I think might help would be moving the primary antagonists out of the school. That way, I think you could appeal to a somewhat older and/or maturer audience in case the material is too dark for most YAs.

By: Comicbookguy117

Comicbookguy117 — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 01:37:54 +0000

Everything has an audience. You just gottas know where to look. Personally, it seems too dark for me. But that’s just me. I’ve been told that you just have to write what you want to write, you know? You are not going to please everyone. Someone won’t like something about writing. But a lot of people proboably will. So as for the idea itself, why make the main character kill his girlfriend? Is it part of some kind of ritual? Is he being groomed for something? Just curious.

By: Mabs

Mabs — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 18:05:15 +0000

Hello, I’m new here and i’d like to put my thoughts here;

My own Super Hero Novel (it shouldn’t really be called that, for the reason i’ll list below) contains a fair few very heavy elements, and its very gritty and ‘realistic’ to true life – so far as it can be, at any rate.

My main character makes some very bad choices, comes to realize he’s had an amulet that could release a very powerful Daemon like Alien by an accidental wrong sentence on his behalf, that the school bullies WANT him to relase the daemon because they’re not even human.

To top it off, they kidnap his girlfriend, beat him within an inch of his life and cause him to kill his girlfriend and rip the entire planet apart with the release of power, shatters his mind and causes him to have nothing left, and whats worse is he’s become the vessel to something that destroyed an entire galaxy before it was imprisoned at the loss of millions of lives.

So my novel, while hardly a super ‘hero’ story, touches on a lot of issues that are not for children. Do you think that it could still have a sufficient audience?