Comments on: Surviving to Page 2 http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/ How to write a superhero book, comic book or superhero novel and get it published Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:00:06 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: B. McKenzie http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-207224 B. McKenzie Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:00:06 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-207224 Thank you. Thank you.

]]> By: Sophie http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-207212 Sophie Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:00:36 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-207212 I must say, I find your website really useful. Speaking as an aspiring writer, it has given me all sorts of ideas and guidelines which I can use to structure my stories (and even, to an extent, the articles I write!) Just thought I'd let you know that you're doing a great job :) I must say, I find your website really useful. Speaking as an aspiring writer, it has given me all sorts of ideas and guidelines which I can use to structure my stories (and even, to an extent, the articles I write!)

Just thought I’d let you know that you’re doing a great job :)

]]> By: Chihuahua0 http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-147523 Chihuahua0 Sat, 27 Aug 2011 02:06:10 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-147523 I'm trying to cut down on the opening, trying to find the exact amount of time to spend before introducing the co-protagonist, since I need to establish the protagonist first in an exchange with his dad. In an earlier draft, Finn enters at Page 5. Now it's the end of Page 3. Is this okay, or should I condense it more, since it's the main point of the opening scene? I’m trying to cut down on the opening, trying to find the exact amount of time to spend before introducing the co-protagonist, since I need to establish the protagonist first in an exchange with his dad. In an earlier draft, Finn enters at Page 5. Now it’s the end of Page 3. Is this okay, or should I condense it more, since it’s the main point of the opening scene?

]]> By: Articles of the Week May 29 – June 04 « Read2Write http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-132179 Articles of the Week May 29 – June 04 « Read2Write Sat, 11 Jun 2011 19:49:59 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-132179 [...] graphic novels » Will Your Manuscript Survive to Page 20?  “Assuming your manuscript has survived to page 2, here are some thoughts about how to keep a publisher’s assistant reading to page [...] [...] graphic novels » Will Your Manuscript Survive to Page 20?  “Assuming your manuscript has survived to page 2, here are some thoughts about how to keep a publisher’s assistant reading to page [...]

]]> By: Jeremy Melloul http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-94574 Jeremy Melloul Tue, 14 Dec 2010 02:37:54 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-94574 Well a moderate amount is always best. Shows consideration rather than blind acceptance / disregard. Thank you! I've emailed you :) Well a moderate amount is always best. Shows consideration rather than blind acceptance / disregard.

Thank you! I’ve emailed you :)

]]> By: B. Mac http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-94506 B. Mac Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:26:10 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-94506 Yeah, I don't get hung up on how much of my advice gets used. It's always less than half. (Understandably--if I offered three potential solutions for something, at most one of those will get used). <br /> Please feel free to let me know if you have any other questions. Yeah, I don’t get hung up on how much of my advice gets used. It’s always less than half. (Understandably–if I offered three potential solutions for something, at most one of those will get used).

Please feel free to let me know if you have any other questions.

]]> By: Jeremy Melloul http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-94438 Jeremy Melloul Mon, 13 Dec 2010 08:53:53 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-94438 Please, don't! This is awesome. I didn't take all of your advice, it wouldn't be possible haha, but I reworked a lot of the story now and it feels a lot better. It's more complex and I'm using an alternative beginning I had - I originally had doubts about including a prologue and have decided to go ahead without it. I think Elead's become a much more interesting character now and even though you don't know the entire story (where would the fun be in that? ;) ) your tips have helped me look at the plot & character(s) in a different way and really helped me out! Thank you! I still feel like there are changes to make, as there always will be, but it feels a lot stronger than I knew it could be. I did read the article on making characters likable and it has been helpful. Right now I'm struggling with trying to add a little bit of levity to the novel, but maybe that's better left to the next "book" within the novel! Please, don’t! This is awesome. I didn’t take all of your advice, it wouldn’t be possible haha, but I reworked a lot of the story now and it feels a lot better. It’s more complex and I’m using an alternative beginning I had – I originally had doubts about including a prologue and have decided to go ahead without it.

I think Elead’s become a much more interesting character now and even though you don’t know the entire story (where would the fun be in that? ;) ) your tips have helped me look at the plot & character(s) in a different way and really helped me out!

Thank you! I still feel like there are changes to make, as there always will be, but it feels a lot stronger than I knew it could be.

I did read the article on making characters likable and it has been helpful. Right now I’m struggling with trying to add a little bit of levity to the novel, but maybe that’s better left to the next “book” within the novel!

]]> By: B. Mac http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-94402 B. Mac Mon, 13 Dec 2010 03:57:22 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-94402 Hmm... Perhaps I need to work more on conciseness. Your original question was 39 words and I wrote more than 850. Hmm… Perhaps I need to work more on conciseness. Your original question was 39 words and I wrote more than 850.

]]> By: B. Mac http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-94401 B. Mac Mon, 13 Dec 2010 03:52:52 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-94401 Yes, Jeremy. <br /> If I could offer a few additional opinions... <br /> 1) In most cases, I don't think it's much harder to develop a setting/premise by starting the story proper. Having the character available may help you make the story clearer to the reader and show how the protagonist ties into the premise. For example, if one of the main elements about your world is a mostly icy relationship conflict between humans and another species, you could probably flesh out the details of the relationship more effectively with a scene than with a prologue. In contrast, a prologue that describes the humans-dolphins conflict without using the main character would probably be flatter... <br /> 2) People read <i>stories</i>, not settings. As a prospective reader, I'm less interested in the setting than in how the main characters and their goals tie into the setting. I think readers will give you more leeway to take your time building up a setting if you are working in some interesting details about the character. <br /> 3) So far, the element of your story that strikes me as the most interesting is the idea of the priest in danger. I think it's more important early on to establish that we should care about him. The other elements of the premise/setting, like the religious cult secretly bent on genocide, seem sort of secondary to that. As above, I think the more people care about the priest, the more they will want to learn about the cult endangering him. <br /> 4) Establishing that the character is interesting/likable and that we should care about him is not mutually exclusive with establishing the premise/setting. For example, maybe the man in trouble comes to Elead with his startling revelation because there's something really unusual/interesting/distinct about Elead. <br /> --Most obvious/least interesting: Elead strikes him as so honest/incorruptible that he's the best person to turn to against an enemy with agents everywhere. <br /> --The man didn't come to Elead originally, but comes to the Church to meet up with someone else. The man gets stressed, waiting for his contact, but the contact never shows up. The man correctly guesses that the contact has already been killed and he's soon to follow. He turns to Elead because he has no other options and because it'll catch the enemy off-guard. (In this scenario, I'd recommend having Elead be proactive; have him greet the man and ask him what's wrong and if there's anything he can do to help. The more active he is, the more interesting he will probably come across). <br /> --Elead impresses the man with some action, preferably something that sets Elead apart from other churchmen. For example, maybe Elead is a bit more streetwise and brave/adventurous than most of his peers--perhaps he really enjoys "unpleasant" churchwork like prison missionary work and preaching to drug addicts and/or other "undesirables." If the man thought that Elead was his best chance, it'd make sense if it was because Elead showed a bit of toughness/bravery/steel. (Alternately, perhaps the man chooses Elead because he's so sheltered/gentle that he's the last man anyone would suspect*). <br /> --Elead has a conflict or flaw the man finds appealing. For a conflict, perhaps he's having trouble getting along with his bosses and/or the Heralds because he does something they don't like. (For example, perhaps he speaks out vociferously against some questionable behavior they're involved in, even though his bosses may find it "undiplomatic" to criticize another religious movement. After all, the Heralds are just philanthropists that want to help people experience the call to faith, right? ;-) ). <br /> --For a flaw, pretty much anything <i>could</i> be appealing to the man with the disk under the right circumstances. Here are some flaws that might work: <br /> Maybe the priest is TOO optimistic about human nature, which might be refreshing to a man that may have been betrayed and is about to be killed. <br /> Maybe he's TOO confident in the power of faith, which might be a plus in a situation as trying as this one. (If anyone is going to succeed, it'd probably be someone with an iron will and unshakable faith). <br /> *Maybe he's TOO sheltered/gentle, which might be a plus because he's the last person the enemy will suspect. (This would also raise interesting obstacles for him to overcome). <br /> Maybe he's TOO trusting, and has only been involved in this anti-Herald counterconspiracy by accident, perhaps because the man took advantage of him. (For example, perhaps the man stashes the disc at the Church, figuring the priest is too unsuspecting to find anything amiss. The priest finds the disc and assumes that the man forgot them at Mass, so the priest leaves to return them, but finds only the man's dead body). <br /> Maybe he's TOO traditional, and takes moral stances that are very old-school. For example, maybe he condemns tobacco use or something else that few readers would find nefarious. The man with the disk is probably neckdeep in shadiness, so he might not be particularly principled himself, but he might reason that if the priest won't even smoke a cigarette for fear of defiling God's image, there's nothing they could do to turn him against humanity. Note: if you were interested in a character that's too traditional, it would raise some likability issues for the protagonist, but they could be surmounted. Hell, even a serial killer could be likable given the right motivations. <br /> PS: There's nothing wrong with the idea of a nice protagonist receiving a mysterious quest from a soon-to-die stranger, but the plot might be a little bit more three-dimensional if the priest is getting played a bit, like using the church for safe-keeping or otherwise taking advantage of the priest's kindness. It may be more believable and less contrived if the man's initial plan was not to bet everything on a random priest carrying out a dangerous mission. <br /> Alternately, if the priest IS chosen by the man (rather than the priest getting entangled through his own actions), I'd recommend having the priest get selected because of something he does that distinguishes him from other characters. It'll make him more proactive than a passive Chosen One. Yes, Jeremy.

If I could offer a few additional opinions…

1) In most cases, I don’t think it’s much harder to develop a setting/premise by starting the story proper. Having the character available may help you make the story clearer to the reader and show how the protagonist ties into the premise. For example, if one of the main elements about your world is a mostly icy relationship conflict between humans and another species, you could probably flesh out the details of the relationship more effectively with a scene than with a prologue. In contrast, a prologue that describes the humans-dolphins conflict without using the main character would probably be flatter…

2) People read stories, not settings. As a prospective reader, I’m less interested in the setting than in how the main characters and their goals tie into the setting. I think readers will give you more leeway to take your time building up a setting if you are working in some interesting details about the character.

3) So far, the element of your story that strikes me as the most interesting is the idea of the priest in danger. I think it’s more important early on to establish that we should care about him. The other elements of the premise/setting, like the religious cult secretly bent on genocide, seem sort of secondary to that. As above, I think the more people care about the priest, the more they will want to learn about the cult endangering him.

4) Establishing that the character is interesting/likable and that we should care about him is not mutually exclusive with establishing the premise/setting. For example, maybe the man in trouble comes to Elead with his startling revelation because there’s something really unusual/interesting/distinct about Elead.

–Most obvious/least interesting: Elead strikes him as so honest/incorruptible that he’s the best person to turn to against an enemy with agents everywhere.

–The man didn’t come to Elead originally, but comes to the Church to meet up with someone else. The man gets stressed, waiting for his contact, but the contact never shows up. The man correctly guesses that the contact has already been killed and he’s soon to follow. He turns to Elead because he has no other options and because it’ll catch the enemy off-guard. (In this scenario, I’d recommend having Elead be proactive; have him greet the man and ask him what’s wrong and if there’s anything he can do to help. The more active he is, the more interesting he will probably come across).

–Elead impresses the man with some action, preferably something that sets Elead apart from other churchmen. For example, maybe Elead is a bit more streetwise and brave/adventurous than most of his peers–perhaps he really enjoys “unpleasant” churchwork like prison missionary work and preaching to drug addicts and/or other “undesirables.” If the man thought that Elead was his best chance, it’d make sense if it was because Elead showed a bit of toughness/bravery/steel. (Alternately, perhaps the man chooses Elead because he’s so sheltered/gentle that he’s the last man anyone would suspect*).

–Elead has a conflict or flaw the man finds appealing. For a conflict, perhaps he’s having trouble getting along with his bosses and/or the Heralds because he does something they don’t like. (For example, perhaps he speaks out vociferously against some questionable behavior they’re involved in, even though his bosses may find it “undiplomatic” to criticize another religious movement. After all, the Heralds are just philanthropists that want to help people experience the call to faith, right? ;-) ).

–For a flaw, pretty much anything could be appealing to the man with the disk under the right circumstances. Here are some flaws that might work:

Maybe the priest is TOO optimistic about human nature, which might be refreshing to a man that may have been betrayed and is about to be killed.

Maybe he’s TOO confident in the power of faith, which might be a plus in a situation as trying as this one. (If anyone is going to succeed, it’d probably be someone with an iron will and unshakable faith).

*Maybe he’s TOO sheltered/gentle, which might be a plus because he’s the last person the enemy will suspect. (This would also raise interesting obstacles for him to overcome).

Maybe he’s TOO trusting, and has only been involved in this anti-Herald counterconspiracy by accident, perhaps because the man took advantage of him. (For example, perhaps the man stashes the disc at the Church, figuring the priest is too unsuspecting to find anything amiss. The priest finds the disc and assumes that the man forgot them at Mass, so the priest leaves to return them, but finds only the man’s dead body).

Maybe he’s TOO traditional, and takes moral stances that are very old-school. For example, maybe he condemns tobacco use or something else that few readers would find nefarious. The man with the disk is probably neckdeep in shadiness, so he might not be particularly principled himself, but he might reason that if the priest won’t even smoke a cigarette for fear of defiling God’s image, there’s nothing they could do to turn him against humanity. Note: if you were interested in a character that’s too traditional, it would raise some likability issues for the protagonist, but they could be surmounted. Hell, even a serial killer could be likable given the right motivations.

PS: There’s nothing wrong with the idea of a nice protagonist receiving a mysterious quest from a soon-to-die stranger, but the plot might be a little bit more three-dimensional if the priest is getting played a bit, like using the church for safe-keeping or otherwise taking advantage of the priest’s kindness. It may be more believable and less contrived if the man’s initial plan was not to bet everything on a random priest carrying out a dangerous mission.

Alternately, if the priest IS chosen by the man (rather than the priest getting entangled through his own actions), I’d recommend having the priest get selected because of something he does that distinguishes him from other characters. It’ll make him more proactive than a passive Chosen One.

]]> By: Jeremy Melloul http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-94378 Jeremy Melloul Mon, 13 Dec 2010 00:52:46 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-94378 So do you think that even if information about the world will be lost by not having a prologue it's better to just start the story off and try to convey as much information as possible throughout the story? So do you think that even if information about the world will be lost by not having a prologue it’s better to just start the story off and try to convey as much information as possible throughout the story?

]]> By: B. Mac http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-58089 B. Mac Mon, 05 Apr 2010 05:31:35 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-58089 Hello, Kove. I've set up a forum for you <a href=http://www.superheronation.com/2010/04/01/koves-review-forum/ rel="nofollow">here</a>. Good luck! Hello, Kove. I’ve set up a forum for you here. Good luck!

]]> By: Kove http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-58074 Kove Mon, 05 Apr 2010 03:38:42 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-58074 I've visited your site regularly for months now and the information I've gathered here has proven to be invaluable in the creation of both my characters and the world in which they live. I noticed that you set up a review forum for several of your visitors and was hoping you could set one up for me as well. I've never let anyone read any of my work and I'm hoping for some criticism, constructive or otherwise, to help me iron out some of the things I feel I'm missing from my work. Thank you for amassing such an amazing collection of advice and information for inexperienced writers such as myself. I’ve visited your site regularly for months now and the information I’ve gathered here has proven to be invaluable in the creation of both my characters and the world in which they live. I noticed that you set up a review forum for several of your visitors and was hoping you could set one up for me as well. I’ve never let anyone read any of my work and I’m hoping for some criticism, constructive or otherwise, to help me iron out some of the things I feel I’m missing from my work. Thank you for amassing such an amazing collection of advice and information for inexperienced writers such as myself.

]]> By: B. Mac http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-17830 B. Mac Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:56:14 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-17830 Umm, you can post it here or e-mail it to us at superheronation-at-gmail-dot-com . If you'd like a review forum, I can set that up for you. Umm, you can post it here or e-mail it to us at superheronation-at-gmail-dot-com . If you’d like a review forum, I can set that up for you.

]]> By: S.V.T http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-17829 S.V.T Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:54:10 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-17829 I'd like to have my passage reviewed by you guys. I don't know how to do it though. I’d like to have my passage reviewed by you guys. I don’t know how to do it though.

]]> By: B. Mac http://www.superheronation.com/2008/12/10/getting-to-page-2/comment-page-1/#comment-17486 B. Mac Mon, 09 Feb 2009 05:49:53 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=1502#comment-17486 Sure. <a href=http://www.superheronation.com/2008/02/08/halfbakerys-review-forum/ rel="nofollow">Here it is</a>. Sure. Here it is.

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