Comments on: Manuscript Killers: Mary Sues http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/ How to write a superhero book, comic book or superhero novel and get it published Sun, 12 Feb 2012 08:42:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: B. Mac http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-66283 B. Mac Fri, 18 Jun 2010 20:01:38 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-66283 "Oh well I could have gone into greater detail explaining why I’ve picked those traits and its relative consequences to my story. But I assumed that would be unnecessary and create a tsunami of text." I think it's probably relevant to determining whether the character is adequately challenged. Paraphrasing Retardised Whovian, even total ineptitude at the didgeridoo might be sufficient as a flaw if the character belongs to a tribe where the main coming-of-age rite is a didgeridoo test. However, if we only knew about the character is that he's really bad at the didgeridoo without knowing about the tribal test, the main reaction would probably be "WTF" rather than "I wonder how he's going to make it!" <br /> "His friend has a power that will be his best chance of achieving his goal, but his envious trait has lost him a friend. This goal will lead to him getting his powers. His also willing to lie to achieve an end result he believes is good." That sounds interesting. <br /> ”Why does it matter that he’s a rugby fan rather than soccer or something else?” Only an American would say that! Haha. Rugby fans tend to be from a different social-economic status." Ah, that makes sense. In the US, I think there's something similar going on with soccer. One of its main fan-bases is <a href=http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/03/03/80-the-idea-of-soccer/ rel="nofollow">Caucasians that care about looking cosmopolitan</a>. Don't probe too deep into what they (don't) know about the game because you'll make them feel bad. (Personally, I enjoy more traditionally friendly-and-violent American sports that involve more violence on the field than off it). <br /> "I’m sure a lot of Americans know of it, but then most barely get out of their own country :P (runs away)" I'm ideologically biased, of course, but I think that's mainly because most US citizens would have to travel farther to reach a country of a similar socioeconomic level. (No offense to Mexico, but mass killings freak the hell out of fun-seekers). The median U.S. citizen in Phelps County, Missouri is something like 800 miles away from Toronto, the nearest foreign city in the First World. A third of the US population lives in California, Texas, Florida, GA, NM or AZ, probably 1250+ miles to Toronto or Vancouver. I don't think there are many other examples where citizens of one country have to travel so far to reach a country of a similar socioeconomic level. The distances are especially small in Western Europe. (For example, it's just 200 miles from London to Paris, 200 from Edinburgh to Dublin, 300 from Stockholm to Copenhagen, 400 from Rome to Geneva, 500 miles from Paris to Berlin, etc). “Oh well I could have gone into greater detail explaining why I’ve picked those traits and its relative consequences to my story. But I assumed that would be unnecessary and create a tsunami of text.” I think it’s probably relevant to determining whether the character is adequately challenged. Paraphrasing Retardised Whovian, even total ineptitude at the didgeridoo might be sufficient as a flaw if the character belongs to a tribe where the main coming-of-age rite is a didgeridoo test. However, if we only knew about the character is that he’s really bad at the didgeridoo without knowing about the tribal test, the main reaction would probably be “WTF” rather than “I wonder how he’s going to make it!”

“His friend has a power that will be his best chance of achieving his goal, but his envious trait has lost him a friend. This goal will lead to him getting his powers. His also willing to lie to achieve an end result he believes is good.” That sounds interesting.

”Why does it matter that he’s a rugby fan rather than soccer or something else?” Only an American would say that! Haha. Rugby fans tend to be from a different social-economic status.” Ah, that makes sense. In the US, I think there’s something similar going on with soccer. One of its main fan-bases is Caucasians that care about looking cosmopolitan. Don’t probe too deep into what they (don’t) know about the game because you’ll make them feel bad. (Personally, I enjoy more traditionally friendly-and-violent American sports that involve more violence on the field than off it).

“I’m sure a lot of Americans know of it, but then most barely get out of their own country :P (runs away)” I’m ideologically biased, of course, but I think that’s mainly because most US citizens would have to travel farther to reach a country of a similar socioeconomic level. (No offense to Mexico, but mass killings freak the hell out of fun-seekers). The median U.S. citizen in Phelps County, Missouri is something like 800 miles away from Toronto, the nearest foreign city in the First World. A third of the US population lives in California, Texas, Florida, GA, NM or AZ, probably 1250+ miles to Toronto or Vancouver. I don’t think there are many other examples where citizens of one country have to travel so far to reach a country of a similar socioeconomic level. The distances are especially small in Western Europe. (For example, it’s just 200 miles from London to Paris, 200 from Edinburgh to Dublin, 300 from Stockholm to Copenhagen, 400 from Rome to Geneva, 500 miles from Paris to Berlin, etc).

]]> By: Herojock http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-66274 Herojock Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:09:01 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-66274 p.s the London dungeon is a nickname given by those in my story, who have been captured and contained. Its a ploy on the actual famous and now turned tourist attraction in London. I'm sure a lot of Americans know of it, but then most barely get out of their own country :P (runs away) p.s the London dungeon is a nickname given by those in my story, who have been captured and contained. Its a ploy on the actual famous and now turned tourist attraction in London. I’m sure a lot of Americans know of it, but then most barely get out of their own country :P (runs away)

]]> By: Herojock http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-66271 Herojock Fri, 18 Jun 2010 18:58:07 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-66271 Right-wing and dungeon. Ok this was a big leap I admit without much explanation, but the reality is even superheroes have a political mindset. Where a moral black/white aka captain boring Superman would be shown to slap a criminal silly and dump him in jail. A more liberal superhero like Green Arrow would at least question the motives behind his crime. Maybe even go after the causes of the crime. Quick story short, convicted criminals with powers and the government picks one solution. He decides to work with them and also this is where his friend disagrees bla bla. Anyway yeah a new London dungeon is born :P Too crazy? I'd like peoples opinions. Right-wing and dungeon. Ok this was a big leap I admit without much explanation, but the reality is even superheroes have a political mindset. Where a moral black/white aka captain boring Superman would be shown to slap a criminal silly and dump him in jail. A more liberal superhero like Green Arrow would at least question the motives behind his crime. Maybe even go after the causes of the crime. Quick story short, convicted criminals with powers and the government picks one solution. He decides to work with them and also this is where his friend disagrees bla bla. Anyway yeah a new London dungeon is born :P

Too crazy? I’d like peoples opinions.

]]> By: Herojock http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-66268 Herojock Fri, 18 Jun 2010 18:47:10 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-66268 Oh well I could have gone into greater detail explaining why I've picked those traits and its relative consequences to my story. But I assumed that would be unnecessary and create a tsunami of text. 'lack of challenging flaws' Fair enough, however I am only beginning to flesh out his character. Jealousy, emotional dishonesty and dissatisfaction I thought were a good start. 'overpowered relative to the obstacles he faces' I very conscious of this and have spent ages looking over how his abilities can be exploited and used against him. For example his super hearing presents him a problem in my world, due to the riot police having sound cannons as weapons. Obviously like guns in our days, these cannons are also illegally used by some criminals. ''being jealous make it harder for him to achieve his goal? (Maybe he makes paranoid mistakes or gets in a plagiarism scandal or something)'' Did I say jealous I mean't to use envious. Those two words are some times wrongly used interchangeably. This causes trouble in all areas. His friend has a power that will be his best chance of achieving his goal, but his envious trait has lost him a friend. This goal will lead to him getting his powers. His also willing to lie to achieve an end result he believes is good. The mixture of envy and willingness to lie (beneficial lies he reasons) to his friend to achieve his goal grants him his powers. But also his own enemy. ''Why does it matter that he’s a rugby fan rather than soccer or something else?'' only an American would say that! haha. Rugby fans tend to be from a different social-economic status. It is a sport that doesn't have much grass roots support and is very popular in private schools. It definitely represents his personality, his head strong and compared to the average student at his school his more physical. Come on his attending a school where there are robot duels instead of fist fights. This is one way he has to try to fit in. I think everyone has a political ideology and it invades our thoughts and minds both consciously and subconsciously. Stating he is centre-right wing was a cheap and quick way of summing up his attitude to how he handles certain obstacles. His mate has a different opinion on issues and their friendly struggle will be dialectical in nature. Regarding his skin colour. To be honest, I didn't want him to have my skin colour or be white. His friend is of middle eastern origin, so he became a 'happy' medium. How bad is that? very. Oh well I could have gone into greater detail explaining why I’ve picked those traits and its relative consequences to my story. But I assumed that would be unnecessary and create a tsunami of text.

‘lack of challenging flaws’ Fair enough, however I am only beginning to flesh out his character. Jealousy, emotional dishonesty and dissatisfaction I thought were a good start.

‘overpowered relative to the obstacles he faces’ I very conscious of this and have spent ages looking over how his abilities can be exploited and used against him. For example his super hearing presents him a problem in my world, due to the riot police having sound cannons as weapons. Obviously like guns in our days, these cannons are also illegally used by some criminals.

”being jealous make it harder for him to achieve his goal? (Maybe he makes paranoid mistakes or gets in a plagiarism scandal or something)” Did I say jealous I mean’t to use envious. Those two words are some times wrongly used interchangeably. This causes trouble in all areas. His friend has a power that will be his best chance of achieving his goal, but his envious trait has lost him a friend. This goal will lead to him getting his powers. His also willing to lie to achieve an end result he believes is good. The mixture of envy and willingness to lie (beneficial lies he reasons) to his friend to achieve his goal grants him his powers. But also his own enemy.

”Why does it matter that he’s a rugby fan rather than soccer or something else?” only an American would say that! haha. Rugby fans tend to be from a different social-economic status. It is a sport that doesn’t have much grass roots support and is very popular in private schools. It definitely represents his personality, his head strong and compared to the average student at his school his more physical. Come on his attending a school where there are robot duels instead of fist fights. This is one way he has to try to fit in.

I think everyone has a political ideology and it invades our thoughts and minds both consciously and subconsciously. Stating he is centre-right wing was a cheap and quick way of summing up his attitude to how he handles certain obstacles. His mate has a different opinion on issues and their friendly struggle will be dialectical in nature.

Regarding his skin colour. To be honest, I didn’t want him to have my skin colour or be white. His friend is of middle eastern origin, so he became a ‘happy’ medium. How bad is that? very.

]]> By: B. Mac http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-66245 B. Mac Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:45:26 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-66245 Leaving aside the tastes of the character for a second, I think the defining trait of a Mary Sue is a lack of challenging flaws and/or being overpowered relative to the obstacles he faces. <br /> Most of the things you've mentioned don't seem to me like they'd really affect the challenge level for him, although they might. For example, how does being jealous make it harder for him to achieve his goal? (Maybe he makes paranoid mistakes or gets in a plagiarism scandal or something). Why does it matter that he's a rugby fan rather than soccer or something else? (Maybe it represents something unusual about his personality--at a school for advanced science students, maybe the student body would look down upon somebody that's into "brutish" sports like that). Why does it matter that he's right-wing rather than anything else? (Maybe leftists accuse him acting "white-wing" or "not really black" or "acting white" or whatever, or maybe his ideology presents some obstacle to his own effectiveness). Also, umm, what does him being right-wing have to do with him locking up people in a dungeon? <br /> ... <br /> "He's multicultural/I'm black"--ehh, I think most people, especially those in the racial majority, would not see much of a distinction there. (I would note that most people regard Barack Obama as an African-American even though he's of mixed racial descent). Thinking more broadly, when a character is a mix between something relatively rare and something more common, the rarer element usually sticks out more. (IE: the child of an elf and a human will almost always be described as a half-elf, even though "half-human" is technically just as correct). <br /> This vaguely reminds me of <a href="http://www.superheronation.com/2009/04/26/six-plot-items-that-cannot-be-added-lightly/#comment-25598" rel="nofollow">a comment about a workshop author that thought that doing a prom story about a gay guy was totally different than doing a prom story about a lesbian</a>. There may be a significant distinction there, but probably not one appreciable to most people outside of the group (besides the utterly obvious "one protagonist is a woman and the other isn't"). On the other hand, maybe being of mixed racial descent is so significantly different than being black that the target reader (who is probably neither) will discern it. Leaving aside the tastes of the character for a second, I think the defining trait of a Mary Sue is a lack of challenging flaws and/or being overpowered relative to the obstacles he faces.

Most of the things you’ve mentioned don’t seem to me like they’d really affect the challenge level for him, although they might. For example, how does being jealous make it harder for him to achieve his goal? (Maybe he makes paranoid mistakes or gets in a plagiarism scandal or something). Why does it matter that he’s a rugby fan rather than soccer or something else? (Maybe it represents something unusual about his personality–at a school for advanced science students, maybe the student body would look down upon somebody that’s into “brutish” sports like that). Why does it matter that he’s right-wing rather than anything else? (Maybe leftists accuse him acting “white-wing” or “not really black” or “acting white” or whatever, or maybe his ideology presents some obstacle to his own effectiveness). Also, umm, what does him being right-wing have to do with him locking up people in a dungeon?

…

“He’s multicultural/I’m black”–ehh, I think most people, especially those in the racial majority, would not see much of a distinction there. (I would note that most people regard Barack Obama as an African-American even though he’s of mixed racial descent). Thinking more broadly, when a character is a mix between something relatively rare and something more common, the rarer element usually sticks out more. (IE: the child of an elf and a human will almost always be described as a half-elf, even though “half-human” is technically just as correct).

This vaguely reminds me of a comment about a workshop author that thought that doing a prom story about a gay guy was totally different than doing a prom story about a lesbian. There may be a significant distinction there, but probably not one appreciable to most people outside of the group (besides the utterly obvious “one protagonist is a woman and the other isn’t”). On the other hand, maybe being of mixed racial descent is so significantly different than being black that the target reader (who is probably neither) will discern it.

]]> By: Herojock http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-66212 Herojock Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:56:53 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-66212 A friend of mine is claiming my character might be a Mary Sue of me. I wasn't offended but was surprised and wanted to know why. She said he seems like an imagined version of me. What?! So looking over his traits, background and everything I'm struggling to see how. All the Sue tests score the character very anti-sue. What do you think? His a spiritualist/I'm an atheist His multicultural/I'm black His born in the North of England/I'm born in the South of England His emotionally dishonest/I'm emotionally too honest His a jealous type/I don't see myself as a jealous type and no one has described me as one. His usually dissatisfied/I'm usually satisfied His into Rugby/I hate Rugby and love football and tennis. His interested in astrology and science/I'm the total opposite and love world affairs and politics. He went to a private school/I went to a typical inner city school He has a cold relationship with his mum/I'm a mummies boy He prefers rock and classical music/I prefer dance, RnB and Pop music His straight/I'm gay His clothes consist of jack wills (its like Britain's Abercrombie & Fitch)/I wouldn't catch myself dead wearing these clothes at University. Dead. His attending a University with advance futuristic technology in London/I'm attending a very good University not in London. Politically his centre-right wing and I'm centre left-wing (this contributes to him rounding up virus infected people and locking them in a modern day London dungeon. Naughty Naughty) So what do you think? Surely my friend is talking crap or have I just committed the first sin of Mary sue-ism? offended by the criticism of my character :P A friend of mine is claiming my character might be a Mary Sue of me. I wasn’t offended but was surprised and wanted to know why. She said he seems like an imagined version of me. What?! So looking over his traits, background and everything I’m struggling to see how. All the Sue tests score the character very anti-sue. What do you think?

His a spiritualist/I’m an atheist
His multicultural/I’m black
His born in the North of England/I’m born in the South of England
His emotionally dishonest/I’m emotionally too honest
His a jealous type/I don’t see myself as a jealous type and no one has described me as one.
His usually dissatisfied/I’m usually satisfied
His into Rugby/I hate Rugby and love football and tennis.
His interested in astrology and science/I’m the total opposite and love world affairs and politics.
He went to a private school/I went to a typical inner city school
He has a cold relationship with his mum/I’m a mummies boy
He prefers rock and classical music/I prefer dance, RnB and Pop music
His straight/I’m gay
His clothes consist of jack wills (its like Britain’s Abercrombie & Fitch)/I wouldn’t catch myself dead wearing these clothes at University. Dead.
His attending a University with advance futuristic technology in London/I’m attending a very good University not in London.
Politically his centre-right wing and I’m centre left-wing (this contributes to him rounding up virus infected people and locking them in a modern day London dungeon. Naughty Naughty)

So what do you think? Surely my friend is talking crap or have I just committed the first sin of Mary sue-ism? offended by the criticism of my character :P

]]> By: Stet http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-61918 Stet Mon, 17 May 2010 20:27:25 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-61918 That's 'Action and Adventure' in YA. If you click here http://www.barnesandnoble.com/subjects/subjects.asp?cds2Pid=16451&linkid=1555175 (sorry, I don't know how to embed a link), you'll find the following categories: Fiction Books & Literature Graphic Novels Horror Mystery & Crime Poetry Romance Books Science Fiction & Fantasy Thrillers Westerns Actually, just writing about this helps a great deal, because it's pretty clearly gotta go in SF. Thriller readers I'm not sure would accept superpowers. But SF readers? Sure. They're promiscuous. That's a good point about horror not necessarily involving the supernatural. But I think most supernormal powers aren't what I think of as supernatural: that is, 'occult.' On the other hand, there's Hellboy and Ghost Rider and Spawn and such. Another good point about 'which faction does the character join' being central to the origin story. The only cape-and-tights novel for adults that I'm aware of is Soon I Will Be Invincible. Which did pretty well, I think, despite its flaws. (Unlike my book, which of *course* is completely flawless ...) But as you say, that was pretty tongue-in-cheek. That’s ‘Action and Adventure’ in YA. If you click here http://www.barnesandnoble.com/subjects/subjects.asp?cds2Pid=16451&linkid=1555175 (sorry, I don’t know how to embed a link), you’ll find the following categories:

Fiction Books & Literature
Graphic Novels
Horror
Mystery & Crime
Poetry
Romance Books
Science Fiction & Fantasy
Thrillers
Westerns

Actually, just writing about this helps a great deal, because it’s pretty clearly gotta go in SF. Thriller readers I’m not sure would accept superpowers. But SF readers? Sure. They’re promiscuous.

That’s a good point about horror not necessarily involving the supernatural. But I think most supernormal powers aren’t what I think of as supernatural: that is, ‘occult.’ On the other hand, there’s Hellboy and Ghost Rider and Spawn and such.

Another good point about ‘which faction does the character join’ being central to the origin story.

The only cape-and-tights novel for adults that I’m aware of is Soon I Will Be Invincible. Which did pretty well, I think, despite its flaws. (Unlike my book, which of *course* is completely flawless …) But as you say, that was pretty tongue-in-cheek.

]]> By: B. Mac http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-61894 B. Mac Mon, 17 May 2010 17:19:09 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-61894 In X-Men, I think the origin story also includes the reason the character signed up with Professor X (rather than the Brotherhood or another group). That makes it easier to give the character moral motivation. <br /> As for genre, I think a lot of bookstores have a shelf for action or <a href="http://www.barnesandnoble.com/subjects/teens/index.asp?pid=21739" rel="nofollow">action/adventure</a>. Would you feel comfortable with it in that category? <br /> "Thrillers? Yeah, but the characters have supernormal powers. Horror? There’s no supernatural element." If scaring the audience is a major goal of the story, it wouldn't matter whether there is a supernatural element or not. (See The Cask of Amontillado, for example). Plus, I would consider supernormal powers to be supernatural, anyway. <br /> While superheroes often wear a distinctive costume, I don't think that the costume or lack thereof would affect shelf/genre placement, particularly with novels. (I think it'd affect the target audience and mood of the book, though--I'd be leery about selling a cape-and-tights hero to adult readers unless I was doing it for comedic effect or commentary). In X-Men, I think the origin story also includes the reason the character signed up with Professor X (rather than the Brotherhood or another group). That makes it easier to give the character moral motivation.

As for genre, I think a lot of bookstores have a shelf for action or action/adventure. Would you feel comfortable with it in that category?

“Thrillers? Yeah, but the characters have supernormal powers. Horror? There’s no supernatural element.” If scaring the audience is a major goal of the story, it wouldn’t matter whether there is a supernatural element or not. (See The Cask of Amontillado, for example). Plus, I would consider supernormal powers to be supernatural, anyway.

While superheroes often wear a distinctive costume, I don’t think that the costume or lack thereof would affect shelf/genre placement, particularly with novels. (I think it’d affect the target audience and mood of the book, though–I’d be leery about selling a cape-and-tights hero to adult readers unless I was doing it for comedic effect or commentary).

]]> By: Stet http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-61890 Stet Mon, 17 May 2010 16:02:37 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-61890 Huh. That's interesting about the primacy of origin stories. I'm trying to think of a popular superhero without one, and not having much luck. Most mutants, except that 'mutant' is I guess the origin story. But Cyclops and Jean Gray and Wolverine didn't really come with origin stories, at least back in the yellow-tights days when I read 'em. I actually only read the first half of the first Dresden, myself! Odd Thomas I've read more of; he sees ghosts, basically. But he saves the day, nobody knows his powers ... I like the idea about a distinction between the normal and supernormal characteristics. Puts an emphasis on *costumed* crime-fighter that probably belongs. The novel I'm shopping is costume-free, and my agent is struggling, I think, with genre. Where should it be shelved? SF? There's no magic or future tech, and it's not in the future or another world. Thrillers? Yeah, but the characters have supernormal powers. Horror? There's no supernatural element. Huh. That’s interesting about the primacy of origin stories. I’m trying to think of a popular superhero without one, and not having much luck.

Most mutants, except that ‘mutant’ is I guess the origin story. But Cyclops and Jean Gray and Wolverine didn’t really come with origin stories, at least back in the yellow-tights days when I read ‘em.

I actually only read the first half of the first Dresden, myself! Odd Thomas I’ve read more of; he sees ghosts, basically. But he saves the day, nobody knows his powers …

I like the idea about a distinction between the normal and supernormal characteristics. Puts an emphasis on *costumed* crime-fighter that probably belongs. The novel I’m shopping is costume-free, and my agent is struggling, I think, with genre. Where should it be shelved? SF? There’s no magic or future tech, and it’s not in the future or another world. Thrillers? Yeah, but the characters have supernormal powers. Horror? There’s no supernatural element.

]]> By: B. Mac http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-61872 B. Mac Mon, 17 May 2010 13:05:29 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-61872 Well, Sailor Moon and American Dragon have only magic, and I would consider them both superhero stories. <br /> 1) For one thing, they both use dual (secret) identities, like most superhero stories do. Even superhero stories that don't have secret identities tend to give the characters some distinction between the supernatural and normal characteristics. (For example, the Fantastic Four had normal lives before they became the Fantastic Four, even though their names didn't change--also, I'd argue that Ben Grimm's identity did change substantially and a lot of his story arc revolves around getting back to his old, human self). <br /> As for Dresden, was there ever a time he had a nonmagical identity? I've only read the first book, but I didn't get that impression. (All of my comments about Dresden should be taken with appropriate skepticism-- I haven't read the Reacher or Odd Thomas books either, so I can't talk about those). <br /> 2) Dresden has no origin story. In 90%+ of superhero stories, the origin story explains how a relatively normal person gets extraordinary powers and why (s)he uses those powers to fight crime. For example, Jake Long is a random teen who discovers that he's secretly a part-time dragon whose family obligations include fighting evil. In contrast, Dresden is never a relatively normal (nonmagical) person and doesn't talk about why he (sort of) works for the police force. The character's motivation is usually central (or at least important) to a superhero story. For example, the Punisher and Batman and Spiderman reveal their moral motivations in how they react to the murder of family members. The origin stories of Superman, Captain America, and my Agent Orange justify their quests in terms of defending explicitly American values. (At least, that's how they were created... <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/30/opinion/30lundegaard.html" rel="nofollow">the American way has since been retconned out of Superman</a> and Captain America sounds more like a MSNBC commentator nowadays). Well, Sailor Moon and American Dragon have only magic, and I would consider them both superhero stories.

1) For one thing, they both use dual (secret) identities, like most superhero stories do. Even superhero stories that don’t have secret identities tend to give the characters some distinction between the supernatural and normal characteristics. (For example, the Fantastic Four had normal lives before they became the Fantastic Four, even though their names didn’t change–also, I’d argue that Ben Grimm’s identity did change substantially and a lot of his story arc revolves around getting back to his old, human self).

As for Dresden, was there ever a time he had a nonmagical identity? I’ve only read the first book, but I didn’t get that impression. (All of my comments about Dresden should be taken with appropriate skepticism– I haven’t read the Reacher or Odd Thomas books either, so I can’t talk about those).

2) Dresden has no origin story. In 90%+ of superhero stories, the origin story explains how a relatively normal person gets extraordinary powers and why (s)he uses those powers to fight crime. For example, Jake Long is a random teen who discovers that he’s secretly a part-time dragon whose family obligations include fighting evil. In contrast, Dresden is never a relatively normal (nonmagical) person and doesn’t talk about why he (sort of) works for the police force. The character’s motivation is usually central (or at least important) to a superhero story. For example, the Punisher and Batman and Spiderman reveal their moral motivations in how they react to the murder of family members. The origin stories of Superman, Captain America, and my Agent Orange justify their quests in terms of defending explicitly American values. (At least, that’s how they were created… the American way has since been retconned out of Superman and Captain America sounds more like a MSNBC commentator nowadays).

]]> By: Stet http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-61836 Stet Mon, 17 May 2010 02:42:54 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-61836 Oh, gotcha. Just strikes me as odd that these are apparently prevalent in submissions/workshops but haven't hit the shelves yet. Maybe dragons will be the new dragons. (Have you written about 'what makes a superhero story a superhero story?' Does Koontz's Odd Thomas series count? Lee Child's Jack Reacher books? Something like the Dresden Files is definitely--obviously--urban fantasy, but ... why isn't it superhero? Because there's -only- magic?) Oh, gotcha. Just strikes me as odd that these are apparently prevalent in submissions/workshops but haven’t hit the shelves yet. Maybe dragons will be the new dragons.

(Have you written about ‘what makes a superhero story a superhero story?’ Does Koontz’s Odd Thomas series count? Lee Child’s Jack Reacher books? Something like the Dresden Files is definitely–obviously–urban fantasy, but … why isn’t it superhero? Because there’s -only- magic?)

]]> By: B. Mac http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-61656 B. Mac Sat, 15 May 2010 07:33:31 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-61656 I don't think it's that the concept (a protagonist that's half-human) is flawed. Hell, if you can handle the relatability concerns, I don't even think it would be terribly difficult. I think that the manuscripts and workshop pieces I've seen in this area have fallen flat because they tended to handle the revelation in a bland, expository way. Usually, the protagonist learned the truth in a long-winded info-dump from the mother (or adopted parents). Sometimes the info-dump comes from a mentor/teacher. <br /> I'm getting very tired at this late hour, but some disorganized thoughts that come to mind are... --If the character's discovery of his hidden origin is supposed to be dramatic, it might help to have him actually discover it rather than passively receive an exposition. For example, as the half-dragon (or half-orc or half-Smurf or whatever) grows up, maybe he gradually picks up clues that his parents are lying to him about something big and pieces it together on his own. --Perhaps the kid knows early on about his ancestry and the conflict is something other than him/her coming to grips with a shocking secret. For example, maybe the kid is caught in the middle of a messy divorce that leads to something like shared custody, where the kid lives as a human half the year and as a dragon the other half. --Personal preference: the character isn't the best of both worlds. For example, maybe (s)he picks up traits and behaviors that get him/her into trouble. Depending on how the kid was raised, (s)he might pick up behaviors from members of one species that rub the other species the wrong way. (IE: a half-elf raised by humans might inadvertently horrify elven-raised elves by using a wood-burning stove that upsets nature spirits). Physical characteristics, too. Instead of being as magically adept and physically powerful like dragons and sociable as a human, maybe he is embarrassingly bad at magic and with all the prickly nature of a dragon. It might just have been the qualities of those (few) manuscripts and workshop pieces. For one thing, the authors tended to reveal the information about the protagonist's lineage to the protagonist in the same way: a melodramatic monologue from the kid's guardian (a mother or adopted parent, usually). If the character's half-dragon (or half-elven or half-orcish or whatever) nature is hidden from him, maybe he could learn about it in a way that doesn't entail as much exposition/info-dumping. Or maybe the kid knows about his lineage early and is involved in some other sort of drama (like a messy divorce giving way to something like shared custody, where the kid lives as a dragon half of the year and human the other half). I don’t think it’s that the concept (a protagonist that’s half-human) is flawed. Hell, if you can handle the relatability concerns, I don’t even think it would be terribly difficult. I think that the manuscripts and workshop pieces I’ve seen in this area have fallen flat because they tended to handle the revelation in a bland, expository way. Usually, the protagonist learned the truth in a long-winded info-dump from the mother (or adopted parents). Sometimes the info-dump comes from a mentor/teacher.

I’m getting very tired at this late hour, but some disorganized thoughts that come to mind are…
–If the character’s discovery of his hidden origin is supposed to be dramatic, it might help to have him actually discover it rather than passively receive an exposition. For example, as the half-dragon (or half-orc or half-Smurf or whatever) grows up, maybe he gradually picks up clues that his parents are lying to him about something big and pieces it together on his own.
–Perhaps the kid knows early on about his ancestry and the conflict is something other than him/her coming to grips with a shocking secret. For example, maybe the kid is caught in the middle of a messy divorce that leads to something like shared custody, where the kid lives as a human half the year and as a dragon the other half.
–Personal preference: the character isn’t the best of both worlds. For example, maybe (s)he picks up traits and behaviors that get him/her into trouble. Depending on how the kid was raised, (s)he might pick up behaviors from members of one species that rub the other species the wrong way. (IE: a half-elf raised by humans might inadvertently horrify elven-raised elves by using a wood-burning stove that upsets nature spirits). Physical characteristics, too. Instead of being as magically adept and physically powerful like dragons and sociable as a human, maybe he is embarrassingly bad at magic and with all the prickly nature of a dragon.

It might just have been the qualities of those (few) manuscripts and workshop pieces. For one thing, the authors tended to reveal the information about the protagonist’s lineage to the protagonist in the same way: a melodramatic monologue from the kid’s guardian (a mother or adopted parent, usually). If the character’s half-dragon (or half-elven or half-orcish or whatever) nature is hidden from him, maybe he could learn about it in a way that doesn’t entail as much exposition/info-dumping. Or maybe the kid knows about his lineage early and is involved in some other sort of drama (like a messy divorce giving way to something like shared custody, where the kid lives as a dragon half of the year and human the other half).

]]> By: Stet http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-61586 Stet Fri, 14 May 2010 18:53:57 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-61586 Huh. A quick-and-incompetent search doesn't show any novels of note. I love the idea that an idea is completely tired--seven half-dragon submissions--but none (or very few) have broken through to the marketplace. Huh. A quick-and-incompetent search doesn’t show any novels of note. I love the idea that an idea is completely tired–seven half-dragon submissions–but none (or very few) have broken through to the marketplace.

]]> By: Wings http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-61479 Wings Fri, 14 May 2010 00:45:54 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-61479 I wrote one in the past...But as it's an Old Shame for me now, I'd rather pretend it never happened. I'm not familiar with any published ones, though. I have vague memories of a comic book character with that as his origin... Firebreather or something? - Wings I wrote one in the past…But as it’s an Old Shame for me now, I’d rather pretend it never happened.

I’m not familiar with any published ones, though. I have vague memories of a comic book character with that as his origin… Firebreather or something?

- Wings

]]> By: Stet http://www.superheronation.com/2008/08/05/problem-characters-mary-sues/comment-page-1/#comment-61436 Stet Thu, 13 May 2010 15:27:40 +0000 http://www.superheronation.com/?p=988#comment-61436 What're some half-dragon books? I wasn't aware that any existed. (And had a dragon-related idea ...) Any recommendations? What’re some half-dragon books? I wasn’t aware that any existed. (And had a dragon-related idea …) Any recommendations?

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